Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

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andreasaspenberg
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by andreasaspenberg »

i just struggle with my motivation at times and i am busy working on a book while i am testing various openttd grfs. i have also slept badly lately.
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by GarryG »

Relax if can ... Don't worry about my industry set as it possible I found and fixed the errors you found.

Cheers pal
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by andreasaspenberg »

sounds good. i am a big fan of these projects with lots of industries. i will happily test the next version when it is ready.
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by LaChupacabra »

Hey Garry
I haven't played with your industry for a long time, I tried and... I remembered why. I mainly tested AuzInd2, because the 6 was not yet released, and the number of problems I encountered there overwhelmed me a bit. I also saw the latest version but still most of the same bugs remain.

There are a lot of these problems, I will mention five of the most important ones

1. Terrible lags when changing view
Haven't seen it with any other set. The problem occurs even on small maps, when paused, where there are no vehicles. Especially when the view is far away. I don't know what is causing this, but I suppose the enterprise graphics may be encoded incorrectly. Perhaps they are too big.

2. The use of several completely different production models, from different sets.
Steel Mill production comes from SPI, Copper Ore Mine from FIRS, Forest and Oil Rig works like Manual Industries, OpenCut Iron Ore Mine is probably your idea (nice but doesn't work), Iron Ore Mine works, but it's completely different mechanics again (works like a factory in regular OTTD, transforming timber (crew) into iron ore) and Flour Mill like from yet another set.
GarryG wrote: 09 Oct 2021 11:47 I don't intend to make these complicated like other industry sets just nice and simple.
Using different mechanics in one set is not nice and simple. ;) I have the impression that you have not even made a decision on what mechanics the production and its growth should be based on, because it looks different everywhere.

3. The impact of the supply of raw materials in most of the enterprises are not working properly
In most cases, deliveries do not affect the level of production (e.g. Abattoirs, Sawmill on Water, Textile Mill). Of which:
  • In one part of the enterprises, raw materials are collected, but they are not processed and do not disappear, which means that over time it becomes overcrowded and the player stops receiving payment for transport (e.g. Abattoirs, Textille Mill)
  • In the second part of enterprises, the supplies of raw materials are not recorded at all (e.g. Lumber Yard, Sawmill on Water, Smelter, OpenCut Iron Ore Mine)
4. Extremely different levels of primary production
Some enterprises like Cattle Station, Agriculture Farm, Sheep Farm have a very high basic production of 500-1500, which continues to grow after the start of transportation. Meanwhile, the vast majority of other enterprises have this production much lower or even pathetic as in the case of Warf A, where the production is 6 and a maximum of... 36, provided that 224 units of other loads are delivered.

5. Too many similar companies and cargoes.
I understand your willingness to add more new enterprises, but please note that a large number of them causes numerous problems.
  • It is difficult for a new player to find his place in this set because the number of possible connections is huge, especially since some cargoes are produced and collected by even a dozen companies.
  • The world map becomes non-functional due to the oversized enterprise listing part
  • The colors denoting enterprises are very often repeated or very similar, often the same color is shared by the enterprises that produce and accept the cargo, which is very problematic.
  • The Industry chains window also loses its functionality because you cannot see all manufacturers or customers without scrolling the window.
  • Probably a large number of graphics may be related to lags which completely spoils the fun of the game
6. No version designation in the add-on name.
Additionally, I have to mention a classic issue with all your add-ons. ;) For this set you used different markings each time. AuzInd, AuzInd160, AuzInd v3, AuzInd2... where AuzInd2 is the 2nd version and AuzInd170 is the 7th version. Players who have All Versions view turned on won't know which one is the most recent. Unfortunately, this cannot be undone, but I do ask that you choose some form of revision marking and use it consistently. Definitely preferably the same for all your add-ons. Then it will be much easier to spot the latest ones. The one used by Andy (FIRS, FISH, HEQS, ...) and many other authors is very good.


What I think you should do first is determine what production mechanics you want your set to use. It should definitely be the same for all enterprises (if you want it to be simple and nice).

Second, you should find out what is causing the lag problem otherwise all the further work will be pointless as the problem is too nagging.

Third, you should determine if you really need all these enterprises and cargoes. In my opinion, it is definitely possible and it is worth limiting.

Fourthly, before adding more enterprises, you should check and repair or adjust to the correct mechanics all the enterprises that are already in the set.

Fifthly, before you publish a new version, decide how to mark the version so that you don't have to change it anymore and you can use it for your other add-ons as well.

It was just general. If you want, I can write also more detailed comments and ideas. ;)
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by andreasaspenberg »

i have found some of the same problems myself. i tried to ship petrol fuel to sand mining and the amount of petrol fuel stored does not go down. that is not a problem with the oil refinery, as that does not store anything. none of them increases production based on deliveries however.
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by GarryG »

My problem with coding Industries is I don't have enough knowledge on how coding works.

All of my coding is basically copy and paste from someones else's work from years ago when Industries receive 3 cargoes and produce 2.

The coding they have is for complicated cargo handling, where the produce just a little or in some cases none at all until you start delivering what cargoes they want. I was hoping by deleting the coding for the complicated cargo handling the Industries would work the same way as the original Industries that come with TTD.

But seems like I was wrong and I too old to learn new coding .. so I think it best I no longer try making a Industry set. I'll stick to the easier ones, Stations, objects and trains.

I will upload the source of what I been doing soon so that any one else like to use the can.

Thanks all.
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All my projects are GPLv2 License unless stated.
Auz Road Sets: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=87335
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by GarryG »

AuzFarmIndustry


Here a copy of the game file and the source of the Industry set I been working on.

I keep making too many mistakes in coding Industries so I putting in the to hard basket .. might look at it again next year.

Your welcome to use any of what I done if you wish to make your own Industry set.
Attachments
AuzFarmIndustry.grf
(12.86 MiB) Downloaded 14 times
AuzIndFarmsSource12Oct2021.rar
(5.38 MiB) Downloaded 6 times
Soot Happens
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All my projects are GPLv2 License unless stated.
Auz Road Sets: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=87335
Auz Project Releases: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=84725
Auz Trains: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=74193
Auz Industry Sets: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=74471
Auz Objects: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=75657
Auz Bridges: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=75248
Auz Stations: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=76390
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by andreasaspenberg »

you should not abandon the project. you should try to gain more skills, so that you can code what you want. i am not a coder myself, primarily because i keep forgetting the code but, i support coding. you could for example try to ask andrew for help, a he did a good job with his wasteland project.
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by Taschi »

andreasaspenberg wrote: 12 Oct 2021 14:22 you should not abandon the project. you should try to gain more skills, so that you can code what you want. i am not a coder myself, primarily because i keep forgetting the code
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by kamnet »

GarryG wrote: 11 Oct 2021 23:38 so I think it best I no longer try making a Industry set.
Don't let snarky remarks from others discourage you from experimenting and learning things to the best of your ability. You have a whole community of people who love you and support your work Your contributions to this community have been beyond measure in value.
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by andreasaspenberg »

kamnet have a good point. i used rpg maker 2003 and i got stuck because i did not have enough information so, i tried to learn, in order to get farther. that is how i do stuff, i do not let a little lack of skill stop me, i aquire the skills i need instead. that is what you should also do.
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by GarryG »

Thanks for your feedback .. I take a break from it for a few months and see what happens.

Beside plenty of other projects to keep me busy.
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All my projects are GPLv2 License unless stated.
Auz Road Sets: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=87335
Auz Project Releases: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=84725
Auz Trains: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=74193
Auz Industry Sets: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=74471
Auz Objects: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=75657
Auz Bridges: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=75248
Auz Stations: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=76390
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by andythenorth »

Saw a thing the other day somewhere.

"Feedback can be accidental gatekeeping and destroy motivation...even when it's well intentioned or solicited. Worse, the most well-intentioned feedback can be the most destructive, as it's relatively easier to ignore malicious or hostile feedback".

Wise words I thought.
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by Taschi »

My impression is that LaChupacabra put a lot of effort into a detailed critique. Yes, well-meaning feedback can ruin motivation but it is necessary for improvement.

In my humble opinion, learning to program is a long and sometimes frustrating process. When GarryG says he has trouble focusing anyway, well, that probably makes it a lot harder. And I think it is something that you need to have a passion for if you want to get anywhere. So, on the one hand I think that if Garry wants to keep coding industry sets he should keep doing it, no matter if they have their issues. But I also completely understand if he doesn't want to keep doing it.

Some approaches I could think of to get around this issue:

* rather than build an industry set from the ground up, do an Australia-themed reskin of an existing industry set (like FIRS) which has the same industries with the same goods and mechanics, but re-skin them to look Australian - e. g. replace the cow farms with sheep farms
* see if someone experienced in NewGRF coding would be willing to collaborate with you - you create the sprites, they create the code. Of course, I can't volunteer other people's work, and I'd also understand if you prefer to work on projects on your own. But it might be worth a shot.
* Keep trying, and ask for help when you feel overwhelmed by the coding

And if you decide to focus on vehicle sets or objects or whatever instead, that's fine by me - it's your hobby and it should be satisfying to you!

Also, LaChupacabra has outlined some very clear advice on how you should proceed with this set, if you want to proceed. I can assure you that things like performance issues or bodged versioning schemes are not inexcusable mistakes on your part, they happen in every software project on the planet. I think his advice is probably worth listening to.
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by GarryG »

Thanks all for your support .. my biggest problem is health issues and getting older. I 66 years young now. Back in 2004 I got hit on side of the head with a iron bar called a truck mule.
They are used to move wagons and some have a fork toe that can be used to pull out dog spikes from sleepers.
Truck Mule_02.jpg
(816.23 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Fractured the skull from behind right ear across to above left eye. I now suffer permanent brain issues as some brain cells are dead and some damaged. (Strange part to this day I have never had any pain from it).

When I read things it don't always sink in until I read it several times and even then no guarantee I know what I read. My problem was getting worse back in 2015 and some of the members in this forum pushed me along and got some brain working again. They basically saved me going into a mental institute. They had a hard time explaining to me how to do some things and they never gave up on me.With the difficulty understanding what codes do what .. I just copied and pasted from FIRS 1.4.3 and SPI Industry sets and just tried to learn the basic bits. As Taschi mentioned I might need to do that again.

I not give up, but will have a break from it for a while.

Thanks again.
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All my projects are GPLv2 License unless stated.
Auz Road Sets: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=87335
Auz Project Releases: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=84725
Auz Trains: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=74193
Auz Industry Sets: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=74471
Auz Objects: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=75657
Auz Bridges: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=75248
Auz Stations: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=76390
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Auz Subway Stations: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=85335
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by andreasaspenberg »

please try to solve at least the most critical bugs, like industries that gets full and stops accepting cargoes. i am not saying that you have to do it yourself. you could get help from another user. not me of course, because i have no idea how to fix it. i am also very busy with my book. andrew(the creator of wasteland) should know, though i do not know if he wants to help.
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by Taschi »

andreasaspenberg wrote: 14 Oct 2021 21:07 please try to solve at least the most critical bugs
I am absolutely certain the mods will get angry at me for this post again, but this is incredibly hypocritical from someone who has not used a single capital letter in one hundred and fifty-three posts on this bulletin board. Maybe you could try solving that "critical bug" and then you'd be in a position to tell other people how they should spend their free time.
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by GarryG »

Maybe after Christmas I MIGHT look at the Industries again.
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All my projects are GPLv2 License unless stated.
Auz Road Sets: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=87335
Auz Project Releases: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=84725
Auz Trains: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=74193
Auz Industry Sets: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=74471
Auz Objects: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=75657
Auz Bridges: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=75248
Auz Stations: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=76390
Auz Tracks: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=82691
Auz Subway Stations: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=85335
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by LaChupacabra »

kamnet wrote: 12 Oct 2021 19:53 Don't let snarky remarks from others discourage you...
Taschi wrote: 13 Oct 2021 21:19 My impression is that LaChupacabra put a lot of effort into a detailed critique.
It wasn't malicious... :? I didn't even intend to criticize anything or anyone here. Garry recently wrote...
GarryG wrote: 26 Sep 2021 02:34
GarryG wrote: 22 Sep 2021 11:30 Livestock .. I have 3 types .. cattle, sheep and pigs. Main reason is for my train set as I have Cattle wagons and sheep wagons (sheep wagons also take piggies).
When I did AuzInd6 many years ago .. I just labels the Industry what type of livestock it handled like in this image.
I was hoping some one might have responded to that post and some other posts to help me decide what to add to the set. But no takers.
I checked how it looks today, noticed some very important problems and just wanted to bring them to Garry's attention because they make adding more enterprises pointless. I admit that I don't really like the phrase "you should", but I had no idea how to write it differently. On the other hand, do not write anything? Everything is OK? From my point of view, the silence would be not fair to Garry.

Regarding the lag that is the biggest problem, I did some tests and it seems that the source of the lag is from enterprises with large graphics, but I don't know exactly where this is coming from.

How it looks like...

Test 1
Assumption: On a small map (512x512) with one city, I will add next types of enterprises to the game, starting with the first available, until I find the one that causes a significant slowdown in the game. All of them were to be in the field of view, each type of enterprise was supposed to be several dozen (on average 20-30). Speed ​​test with maximum zoom out.
Result: As more enterprises were added, the game slowed down more and more, but this drop in speed was proportional to the number of enterprises, so it was normal. After adding 33 type of enterprise (there were about 700 in total), I added another series: Flour Mill. Then the game suddenly slowed down from 0.54x to a completely unplayable 0.01x. It was very problematic because there was nothing I could do, not even by a keyboard shortcut. Once I was able to zoom out, the game ran fairly normally. Then I removed the last enterprises and replaced them with Forests. Their number was comparable in terms of surface and quantity - this time the game ran almost unchanged, maintaining an almost identical pace of 0.52x. In the next step, I removed the forests and put up only one Stone Quarry - the lag reappeared and the game pace dropped to 0.02x. The graphics of this company are large (6x6) but there were over a hundred such large enterprises on the map.
Image
Adding enterprises impact.png
(1.09 MiB) Not downloaded yet

Test 2
Assumption: The same map (512x512), this time firstly one enterprise of each type, also all in view. Then multiplied the number of enterprises of one type that previously caused the problem. Speed ​​test with maximum zoom out.
Result: The pace of the game with the minimum number of each company was quite satisfactory (ca. 15.82x). There was also no lag when changing view. However, after adding just 7 Stone Quarry, the speed was reduced to 0.33x. But when I added 7 Abattoirs instead, which also have large graphics, the game speed was 11.84x.

You can try yourself:
AuzInd2 TEST2, 2212-09-19.sav
do not change the view, add a few or a dozen enterprises of one type and see what is the difference in game speed
(49.36 KiB) Downloaded 9 times

Test 3
Assumption: 64 Stone Quarry vs. 64 Abattoirs - empty 512x512 map, same place, no other difference
Result: Contrary to previous tests the speed is the same in both cases.
Abattoirs vs. Stone Quarry.png
Abattoirs vs. Stone Quarry.png (36.28 KiB) Viewed 204 times
There were over 100 abattoirs in the first test and everything worked fine, but adding one Stone Quarry stopped the game. Why can't you see the difference here?
I am sorry for may English. I know is bed.
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Re: Auztralian Industries (AuzInd)

Post by LaChupacabra »

Test 4
Assumption: Comparison of the impact on the speed of 40 pieces of different enterprises, including Machine Shop from FIRS 3
Result: You can see how different enterprises have a very different effect on speed.
Image
Other enterprises impact.png
(453.71 KiB) Not downloaded yet
I cannot pinpoint the cause of the problem. This may be because of the way the graphics are displayed. Maybe they are unfavorably divided, maybe they overlap too often, maybe there are too many of them and the game starts to have problems with handling them, or maybe there is something wrong with the code itself. I do not know. Hopefully someone will be here who will know what the problem is and how to fix it.
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