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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:25 pm 
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SimYouLater wrote:
After 16 days of radio silence, I've decided to give a taste of what's to come. See the first post for the teaser.

None ship are available.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:21 am 
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McZapkie wrote:
SimYouLater wrote:
After 16 days of radio silence, I've decided to give a taste of what's to come. See the first post for the teaser.

None ship are available.


1) What's your first language? I can tell it's not English. If you want, it might be easier for you to continue this conversation in your own language while I make do with a Google translation.

2) There's only one ship right now, the Fastnet Paddle Steamer, which comes out in 1880. More will come later.
2a) Do you have vehicle expiration turned off?
2a1) If so, have you tried a starting date such as 2100 to see if it shows up?
2a2) If not, have you tried starting in 1885 to ensure it hasn't expired?
2b) If 2a1 and 2a2 don't work, what year are you using as a start date and with what vehicle expiration setting?

3) If all of 2) doesn't solve the problem, are you using any of the following NewGRFs alongside blueFISH? FISH 0.9.2, redFISH, SQUID
3a) If so, which ones?
3b) If not, what other NewGRFs do you have loaded?

4) If all of 3) doesn't solve the problem, what type of OpenTTD installation are you using? Stable? Trunk? NotRoadTypes fork? New Map Features? JGR's Patch Pack? Spring Patch Pack? A patched version you compiled yourself?
4a) If Stable, 1.7.0 or a past version?
4b) If Trunk, which version(s) have you encountered the problem in?
4c) If NotRoadTypes, are you using the latest version?
4d) If New Map Features, which version and from which of the branches?
4e) If JGR's Patch Pack, are you using the latest version?
4e1) If so, I'll have to talk to JGR.
4e2) If not, does the latest version change that?
4e2a) If so, is the problem fixed or just different?
4e2a1) If just different, I'll have to talk to JGR.
4e2b) If not, I'll have to talk to JGR.
4f) If Spring Patch Pack, which version?
4g) If a self-compiled version, I'll need a copy of your installation to investigate.

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Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:56 am 
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I was using JGR 0.17.2, without any other ship grfs.
I launched it again with start date 1885 and still no ships, ship depot construction disabled.
EDIT: same for JGR 0.18.0

PS. English is not my native language, apologise for any grammar issues.

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Projects: Reproducible Map Generation patch, NewGRFs: Manpower industries, PolTrams, Polroad, 600mm narrow gauge, preindustrial houses, wired, ECS industry extension.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:14 am 
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I've definitely got 1 ship.Looking forward to seeing this set maturing , may I ask youself and any other coders out there if we can have a bit more variety of river/canal barges ,transporting of ores/coals , I love transporting the logs using the log barge ,the one that appears to tow ,can not remember the grf set ,for the offshore , as I stay in the oil capital of Europe , a nice variety of supply vessels ,on the early side of years a nice fleet of sailing ships {trawlers,pleasure craft } , I personally feel that marine craft could be used a bit more if there is a bit more of variety , the ships are slow as in real life this is one factor we have to live with unless there is futuristic/concept/fantasy set as in the Ekranoplan grf , nice and fast ships , 127 km/h - 81 km/h .I think I am not alone in wishing you all the best in development of this set .


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:49 am 
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McZapkie wrote:
I was using JGR 0.17.2, without any other ship grfs.
I launched it again with start date 1885 and still no ships, ship depot construction disabled.
EDIT: same for JGR 0.18.0

PS. English is not my native language, apologise for any grammar issues.


piratescooby wrote:
I've definitely got 1 ship.Looking forward to seeing this set maturing , may I ask youself and any other coders out there if we can have a bit more variety of river/canal barges ,transporting of ores/coals , I love transporting the logs using the log barge ,the one that appears to tow ,can not remember the grf set ,for the offshore , as I stay in the oil capital of Europe , a nice variety of supply vessels ,on the early side of years a nice fleet of sailing ships {trawlers,pleasure craft } , I personally feel that marine craft could be used a bit more if there is a bit more of variety , the ships are slow as in real life this is one factor we have to live with unless there is futuristic/concept/fantasy set as in the Ekranoplan grf , nice and fast ships , 127 km/h - 81 km/h .I think I am not alone in wishing you all the best in development of this set .


Well. That's not good. A bug that isn't reproduceable. This will take some time. Sorry for the inconvenience, McZapkie, and thanks for reporting the issue. I'll do my best to solve this.

EDIT: Nailed it! It's a bug in either JGR's Patch Pack or an unknown problem with the GRF. For some reason it doesn't show up when vehicles are set to expire. Contacting JGR about it now. If he can't figure it out, I'll have to ask around about what NML coding mistake would cause this, because I don't have a clue.

EDIT 2: Apparently it is in fact a problem with the NewGRF. I will check the code, but I do not remember anything that would even allow NML to switch vehicles off based on that setting.

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Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:29 am 
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SimYouLater wrote:
EDIT 2: Apparently it is in fact a problem with the NewGRF. I will check the code, but I do not remember anything that would even allow NML to switch vehicles off based on that setting.

Check the model life property? (Guessing)

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FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)

Road Hog (road vehicles, released)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:57 am 
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andythenorth wrote:
SimYouLater wrote:
EDIT 2: Apparently it is in fact a problem with the NewGRF. I will check the code, but I do not remember anything that would even allow NML to switch vehicles off based on that setting.

Check the model life property? (Guessing)


Code:
        model_life:                     20;


Could this be the problem?

Code:
        retire_early:                   36; // magic from Eddi

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You automatically have my permission to re-license graphics or code by me if needed for use in any project that is not GPL v2, on the condition that if you release any derivatives of my graphics they're automatically considered as ALSO GPL v2 (code may remain unreleased, but please do provide it) and carry this provision in GPL v2 uses.
Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:18 pm 
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SimYouLater wrote:
Code:
        model_life:                     20;

Could this be the problem?
Code:
        retire_early:                   36; // magic from Eddi

Probably, because, retire early should be greater than model life - it is subtracted from the last availability date - you need to increase model_life value.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:23 pm 
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McZapkie wrote:
SimYouLater wrote:
Code:
        model_life:                     20;

Could this be the problem?
Code:
        retire_early:                   36; // magic from Eddi

Probably, because, retire early should be greater than model life - it is subtracted from the last availability date - you need to increase model_life value.


I removed the retire_early section. Everything works now. I'll get to uploading it right away.

EDIT: New version is fully uploaded, complete with source code.

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Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:56 pm 
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Bump. I might start working on this again (this or my "TTD-Scale" tracktype/static road proposal).

Does anyone know where I could get specifications on ships? I'm going to try using real stats and balancing from there.

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Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:15 am 
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SimYouLater wrote:
Bump. I might start working on this again (this or my "TTD-Scale" tracktype/static road proposal).

Does anyone know where I could get specifications on ships? I'm going to try using real stats and balancing from there.
http://www.containership-info.com/


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:06 am 
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piratescooby wrote:
SimYouLater wrote:
Bump. I might start working on this again (this or my "TTD-Scale" tracktype/static road proposal).

Does anyone know where I could get specifications on ships? I'm going to try using real stats and balancing from there.
http://www.containership-info.com/


Thanks. That will be very useful for the newer ships.

I'll probably have to do more extensive research on older ones.

_________________
Licenses for my work...
You automatically have my permission to re-license graphics or code by me if needed for use in any project that is not GPL v2, on the condition that if you release any derivatives of my graphics they're automatically considered as ALSO GPL v2 (code may remain unreleased, but please do provide it) and carry this provision in GPL v2 uses.
Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.


Last edited by SimYouLater on Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:11 am 
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Tonnage (GRT) isn't capacity. That's my free tip about ship stats. ;)

And you'll want a calculator that can do knots <-> mph (or km/h).

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FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)

Road Hog (road vehicles, released)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:11 am 
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andythenorth wrote:
Tonnage (GRT) isn't capacity. That's my free tip about ship stats. ;)

And you'll want a calculator that can do knots <-> mph (or km/h).


Good to know. The reason why GRT isn't capacity... That's the total weight of the ship itself? Or is it not the right stat for another technical reason? or is it just that it works like **** for balancing?

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Licenses for my work...
You automatically have my permission to re-license graphics or code by me if needed for use in any project that is not GPL v2, on the condition that if you release any derivatives of my graphics they're automatically considered as ALSO GPL v2 (code may remain unreleased, but please do provide it) and carry this provision in GPL v2 uses.
Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:56 pm 
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SimYouLater wrote:
The reason why GRT isn't capacity...

It's some ship thing - bales of wool or grain or so. Wikipedia is probably your friend.

Realistic stats give you absolutely nothing for gameplay, but they're a jumping off point for understanding different types and classes of ships eh?

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FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)

Road Hog (road vehicles, released)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:18 pm 
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SimYouLater wrote:
Does anyone know where I could get specifications on ships? I'm going to try using real stats and balancing from there. [...] I'll probably have to do more extensive research on older ones.

I have meters of ship books (with real stats), but I don´t think there´s much need to use that in the game´s context. Simply because ships in TTD had been (and are) implemented even more simplicistic than trains.

And what Andy said.

regards
Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:34 pm 
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This is really useful for giving a sense of how inland ships (barges) compare to trucks.
https://www.binnenvaart.be/en/get-to-kn ... -of-barges

It's mixed Dutch/English, but eh.

_________________
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)

Road Hog (road vehicles, released)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:27 pm 
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andythenorth wrote:
This is really useful for giving a sense of how inland ships (barges) compare to trucks.
https://www.binnenvaart.be/en/get-to-kn ... -of-barges

It's mixed Dutch/English, but eh.


Back to the original plan of copying the SQUID/redFish stats then... Still, I would like to have two stats rebalanced from reality: Costs (pruchase and running) and speed. Where could I find that info easily? I've actually done some research on ships for an unrelated project, so I might know where to look, but the ships don't seem to match specific real life ships so much as ideas of specific classes of ships. The Sailing Ships are the worst about this, but even the paddle steamers are hard to match to a specific ship.

According to Google, the Barletta wasn't a paddle steamer (possibly even a petroleum-driven propellor ship), and "Fastnet" is the name of a race for sailing yachts. So I don't know where to begin.

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Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:39 pm 
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Barletta is inspired by Lake Como paddle steamers, but there's no specific ship represented.
http://www.paddlesteamers.info/LakeComo.htm

Speeds range around 5-40 knots depending on ship type:
https://www.quora.com/Merchant-Navy-Wha ... -of-a-ship
https://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng ... ships.html

Realistic speeds make for poor gameplay outside of a specific historical play-style. You have to make a choice about playing style for the grf, or add a speed parameter to support more play-styles, as per Squid etc. ;)

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FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)

Road Hog (road vehicles, released)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:15 pm 
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SimYouLater wrote:
Costs (pruchase and running) and speed. Where could I find that info easily?

You won´t find any real/historic running cost. And I don´t think purchase prices would help much, given their huge numbers. Just to emphasize my former post:

    AIDAaura 42,000 Aker 200 Mio US-$
    MSC Lirica 60,000 Chantiers 250 Mio US-$
    Costa Mediterranea 86,000 Kvaerner 350 Mio US-$
    Carnival Glory 110,000 Fincantieri 500 Mio US-$
    ...

You´d have to understand that it is impossible to balance ships and trains/rvs in a sensible way for the game. Numbers (capacity, price, cost) for ships are HUGE and you can´t balance price/cost against capacity, since you´d have to wait AGES until a 50,000 ton cargo ship, or a crude oil tanker* with 500,000 ton would be laden.

*TT Batillus, 1976 Chantiers de l´Atlantique, 414m * 63m * 36m, draught 28m, capacity 553,662t 667,300m³, GRT 273,500, 17kn, 2*23,800kW

regards
Michael

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