Ergonomy problems

[MagicBuzz]

The 3DTT depot screen is quite perfect : we can see all the trains in depot list, give theim a schedule, add/remove/change wagons and locos...

You are joking, right? IMHO 3DTT is totally unplayable due to its interface

I return you the question...

Which version did you played ?

I'm currently using the "TTT" version (the released one) and the only bad thing is that the game is not complete. GUI is absolutely good, there is not any problem with it, just some lacks (no station list, and the biggest lack, no map window, juste a small stamp) and many bugs. But depot screen is completely functionnal, and building system is very easy to use... I don't know which version you tried, but it should not be the same as mine...

[Hajo]

First things first.

At Start up:

- no mouse cursor.
the lack of a mouse cursor at the start (intro screen) gives a strange feeling to me of what to do next.
It takes away the first think that I'm looking for when starting a program,
the readiness of the program to accept 'direct' user input/control or at lease some graphical feedback of the fact that the game is done loading and ready to be played/continued.
(think intro screens/windows without buttons are generally perceived as waiting screens, that is the user has to wait untill the screen/window disappears, as there are no 'this window can be closed/controlled indicators)
the lack of button's on the intro window also mean there are no clear 'what to do next' indicators.

Solution: add mouse cursor to into screen + add [OK] button on the intro window.

I'll try that. The mouse cursor was/is hidden because it caused problems in Simutrans DOS versions - looooong time ago. Actually I have no idea if that's still needed or not.

- game started in Japanese (expected default -> English)
mmm, ok not a big issue considering the next option screens that will pup up will be the settings and language windows so its clear what to do next. still it gave a short be distinct feeling of ???? whats that ???
...

I'll try to make english the default if the user has not yet selected a language. (After the first start, Simutrans remembers your settings).

[Hajo]

I'll be away a few days, so I now drop out of this discussion.
I'll be back next monday and pick up any suggestions that I'll find

[Tyrell]

...

lol, biggest problem I seem to keep running into (as a long turn TDD fan),
is my lack of alternative examples when it comes to justifying/explaining idea's or suggestions.
(as I don't like it to become a ST v TTD lecture)
well, I give it a try anyway.

startup:
leaving the startup sequence for what is it for the moment.
I do have some comments about the termination of the program when closing the [new map] window,
but might come back to that later, when I worked out some alternatives. (currently on hold)
A little additional info on this might help, unless its also a remnant of the old Dos version's.

Drag and Drop:
one of the current limitations that make it kind of hard to easily improve some aspects of the
user friendliness of some of the parts of ST GUI, is the lack of any drag & drop functionality.
if there is the possibility that D&D is going to be implemented in the not to far away future (6/9MND or so),
I suggest to wait with any major improvements/changes to those parts that are better of with some kind
of D&D functionality. (like the Depot)

Train configuration limits: (not arguing about train configuration limits)
the fact that there is a combination limit when it comes to configuring trains (engine <-> cars)
seams the main reason for the current complexity/confusion level inside the depot window/menu.
- validation of train configuration can be done at different states (question is WHERE to make them mandatory)
when buying: will limit what the user can buy (implies only one train configuration at a time)
when linking/applying route to train (I have not looked at that part)
when releasing train from depot: not sure if this is a workable possibility, but it could make
it more easy to create a simple depot windows/menu. (well maybe)


Some possible complexity points:

- there are no clear, or direct visual reminders of what is going to happen when you click on a vehicle.
(personally I think that the direct action implementation when clicking on vehicles is in general confusing,
might work better if there was a cursor icons that would indicate the action thats going to be applied)

- mixed up button actions. like u can sell a (single) vehicle IF the vehicle button is SET to sell (mode button),
or sell the whole train by USING the other sell button (action button). (two sell buttons!)
additional, some buttons open other windows, while others that are in the same block act as action buttons

- rotational button, vehicles: [Buying/append]+[Buying/PutInFront]+[selling]
looks like a button, but its not. using radio buttons would work a lot better
1) posible mode options are directly presented to user (don't use default button immage for this)
2) clear visual feedback of what mode is currently active (text don't work that well for that)

- train buying and storage display
stored train info is using the same area that is used for buying (added confusion level)
- low visual reprensentation of what is currently inside the depot
- low visual/mental differance to user between storage and buying action's
(using numbers is ok for displying statistical values, but for displaying what/howmany trains/cars are currently inside the depot -> low intuitive level)

hope it makes some sens and has some usefull info in it.

[Hajo]

I've implemented the simpler suggestions from your last message, e.g. the mouse pointer is now shown on the splash screen and the initial language defaults to english

I guess I'll continue to do some polishing like (2) but not major restructurings of the UI. I've been working on a new UI library for my newer projects, but I'm too lazy to port Simutrans to it, but I also think it makes no sense to do all the work twice. E.g. the new library supports drag and drop. I don't want to code that again for Simutrans, but I can't use the new library without replacing _all_ of Simutrans UI code

[Tyrell]

I understand, the gost's of old codes will never die ... unless
(hum, not going there to not upsetting a lot of Simutrain'ers)

[Hajo]

Stopping the current development line, and starting a rewrite was discussed several times.

Going open source was discussed also.

So far we always decided to stay closed source and to try improving the existing, and in some place accept the limits, because the amount of time needed to start all over was overwhelming.

I mean, I'm sure I wouldn't dare to try creating a transport simulation a second time.

Sometimes, new people join the team, bring in fresh power and new drive, and Simutrans makes another jump forward. ATM we seem to be in between two jumps.

I want to mention that Hendrik Siegeln improved Simutrans a lot during the past 6 months, and also implemented some nice new UI elements like charts and choice-boxes. Before that Volker Meyer did some deep restructurings of the code and also some strong improvements, that we might be able to make use of in the future, like bridges and tunnels with curves.

Now and then I work on Simutrans, but indeed the big, deep changes during the last years came from other team members. It seems my role is rather to endure the ages and feed new team members to the beast of Simutrans development

Regarding the fact, that Simutrans is almost the only freeware transport simulation that reached a level of playability, I think the chosen development model isn't too bad. In some aspects Simutrans is even ahead of TTD, which is IMO a great achievement. It is behind in other aspects, so depending on what's important for you you may come to different conclasions.

OpenTTD doesn't count in that comparison IMO because it was made on base of disassembled TTD code, which gave the develoeprs a headstart, instead of doing the basic work by themselves. (I even think OpenTTD is illegal becuase of the way it was created, but I am not a lawyer).

I must say, I watch OpenTTD with great interest. I'm curious to see if it will be only a short-burn hype, or if it will evolve steadily like i.e. The Patch did and does.

Tyrell, you're the Tyrell who was subscribed to simu_gfx some time ago, are you?

[charlieg]

Personally I believe open sourcing Simutrans would be of benefit but Hajo disagreed when I debated and disagrees now.

Other than that, the development model is good IMHO. Why start from scratch? Better to slowly refactor and build upon something that works and, incidently, works well.

[Tyrell]

Thanks for additional insides.

Great achievement to say the least. (game itself and managing development)(period)

And, yes I I'm.



So long there is some sort of development, limits are at risk to be broken.

[Hajo]

And, yes I I'm.

In that case I want to say, I've missed you. I remember there was kind of a discussion between Tomas and you, and shorty thereafter you left.

I want to say, that your ideas about raytracing and modelling objects instead of painting them influenced my later decisions quite a bit. Simutrans didn't benefit from the changes much, but other projects do. I think you've been one of the first ones whom I met who pointed me in that direction. Thanks

[Tyrell]

Thanks, its nice to hear that.
...
(just out of curiosity, what programs are u currently using for modeling and renderering?)

[Hajo]

I've tried Blender, but couldn't get a grip on it.

Now I'm back using PovRay ( http://www.povray.org ) and I'm quite happy with it. In case of Simutrans we now have scene files to render a complete set of monorail tracks and also a complete set of landscape tiles (if we need new ones).

I've started to create a scene file for monorail vehicles, too, but that's not finished yet.

I guess once it's done we'll be able to create monorail and maglev tracks and vehicles quite quickly and also in a rather high quality

[Tyrell]

Blender: lol, had, and still having the same problem with it

Plug:
just in case you ever need a relative simple but still quite powerful 'mesh' modeler (freeware),
you might like to take a look at http://www.anim8or.com . (an8 to pov conversion is possible)

Looking forward to seeing those pov generated images in ST, if/when they get used.

To be a little more on-topic, (makes me feel kind of uncomfortable)
If I think of some more/other possible useful menu improvements that fit the current framework of ST I'll drop them of here.

[eis_os]

Hey, thanks, that looks like an app that is usable by a normal developer

So you use 3D models and render them for Simutrans as Chris Sawyer does with RCT, interesting.

[Hajo]

We're just starting to use such tools. But particularly the new 128x128 pixel tile set benefits a lot of this approach.

But we have too much legacy stuff to really make use of the option to render the cars from a lot of viewpoints.

Maybe in future we'll see vehicles really climb uphill instead of just being shifted upwards

[Villem]

Hmmm i see images of these freight stations, and AI uses em A LOT, but i dont see the explanation how to do em..The Simutrans Manual is Very Limited, and the Wiki even more. Also no matter how many trains i make(i had 20 by the time it hit minus -100,00)and how much profit they make, it goes on minus profit(even if profits outweight the expenses). Also it seems the profits dont show up on me, when i see train make i.e 500,000$, it says that but the bar with minus value of 100,000$ doesnt turn to normal 400,00$, it just keeps going below and below, not up. Simutrans is to complex for a newbie, and the manual doesn't help it at all.

[Hajo]

The manual is bad, thats right. Noone of us developers really wants to write a manual. I spend a lot of time on it becuase I understand that players need a manual but my tries were not quite successful.

The Wiki is a try to get more people involved. One could say we currently try to let the players write a manual. There are players who followed the development of Simutrans quite closely and know a lot about it. The Wiki is open for everyone to contribute.

Income, costs: In Simutrans you pay maintenance for tracks and stations. This maintenance is rather high. If your bank balance continues to drop, maybe you just have too many tracks and too big stations and they are used only infrequently by trains?

If a train earns 400Cr on a stop the balance goes up by 400Cr, I'm sure.

20 trains at start? This looks a lot to me. Usually I can build only 4 or 5 trains, nd then need to wait until they amortise themselves. Try to use longer trains (more carriages) because engines are particularly expensive and it's better to use one 10 carriage train isntead of two 5 carriage train. This alos helps to keep the stations small (one platform instead of two) and you need less track (single track instead of double track) which helps to keep the maintenance low.

Make sure that tracks are used frequently. You pay for them, if they are not used, you'll strat loosing money.

The finance charts should give a hint, where you make money and where you loose money. It's important to have trains run only if fully loaded, and to make good use of tracks and stations.

BTW, you can always raise the starting money in simuconf.tab or use the -freeplay switch to turn of the bankrupt test. This isn't cheating, this are officially supported ways to play Simutrans.

Maybe you should try bus service first. In recent Simutrans versions, cities are initially conencted by roads, that you can immediately use. The plus is, these roads are not yours so you don't have to pay maintenance for them. Oyu only pay maintenance for the bus stops, which isn't that much. The problem is, passenger service will not be proftiable unless you have about 3 cities linked and cover a good area inside the cities with your stops. Passengers will tranfer from one bus to another to reach theri destination, so you don't need too many busses, i.e. three busses doing in-city circles through all stations and one or two intercity busses for the transport between cities.


Edit:

I've updated the Wiki pages. The station page now tells about the maintenance costs:

http://www.hajo.simutrans.com/pmwiki/pm ... ndStations

I've started a page about roads and railroads:

http://www.hajo.simutrans.com/pmwiki/pm ... dRailroads

Edit 2:

Water doesn't need maintenance, so ships are quite cheap to run in Simutrans.

[Tyrell]

( just something I run into in my quest for inlightment )

Some nice articles on software/gui perils. (fun reading to)
User Interface Design for Programmers

[Hajo]

Quote from chapter one:

"Most of the hard core C++ programmers I know hate user interface programming. This surprises me, because I find UI programming to be quintessentially easy, straightforward, and fun."

I could give a few reasons why I hate UI coding, but the book won't listen to me ...

One of the reasons is that UI does not add functionality. My main concern is the function of the program - that's actually what I want to create. Access to the function must exist (= there must be some kind of UI) but IMO going beyond the minimum effort is a waste of time and the time is better invested in improving the functionality itself.

Also, in my experience, UI programming is quite time consuming. Some UI libraries are everything else but easy to use, and complex UI just adds more options to create bugs. In my experience codinmg a good UI easily takes more than 50% of the whole project time. Think, if trhe time was spent on the functionality, the project could have twice as much functionality, as it can have with a good UI (assumeing time and manpower is fixed)

I guess we talk about two project types actually:

1) someone writes a program that is inteneded to be used by pother people - he writes it for them, probaly to sell it.
2) someone writes a program for himself. He wants to try/implement some idea and see if it works out.

Simutrans definitely is a program of the second category. I didn't start it because I wanted to make a new game for everyone, but because I wanted to try if I can create a transport simulation game. (Actually I wanted to learn OOD/OOP and needed a training project. I played TTD a lot that time, and so I chose a tranport sim as example. It seemed quite well suited for learning OOD because most objects are quite obvious.)

I share Simutrans with you, and I sometimes listen to feedback. But it wasn't created to be useable by anyone else but me (I assume if I can use it, everyone can. I'm not that special, am I?). IMO we improved the UI a lot since early versions, and probably we'll further improve it. But that's not the main goal - extensions of the game engine will always have first priority for me (I can't talk for the other developers).

Someone said: "Unix is user friendly. But not idiot friendly."

Simutrans is a bit of this, too. If you know how to use it, it usually works very well. If you don't know, it bites. This is hard for newbies (*sniff*) but my focus is developing the engine; the access to it onyl as much as minimally needed (and IMO the current state is way beyond a minimum, so IMO we did lots for the newby user already!).


Sorry, I had to say that. Even if a lot of people now will bever look at Simutrans anymore. I hope it will help to avoid wrong expectations also.

PS: I'll read the book anyways. I seems to be good and if I ever should work on a commercial project I'll put more focus on the UI. (If someone pays the effort, it's no waste of time anymore )

[Saskia]

I think the UI is a bit unhandy, too, but not cryptic.

Especially the depot is okay, except for the build list, which is extremely confusing - many little engines that are hard to recognize. I would prefer a list of vehicles, like in TT(D), and a easier selection method of trains, that already have been built, like in TT(D), too

If I may say that here, the most disliking thing is the missing possiblity to build parallel diagonal tracks, without accidentally merging them or have a wide unused space between the tracks. Because Simutrans seems to be oriented to those, who build 90° curves, and it's nearly impossible to build more complex tracks [Gleisanlagen].

Sorry if some of the things are not up to date, but it's not easy to get simutrans running, with all those different packages and incompatible package versions