Ergonomy problems

[MagicBuzz]

For the second time I tried this game.

And for the second time I stoped to play after 2 minutes...

GUI is a real nightmare (for me). The game seems to be good, a lot of industries, a vehicules limitation (can't add cargo wagons on a passenger livery loco), sounds great.

But...

- First, map and game display are not in the same direction. It's very hard to know were to build some tracks.
- I realy dislike the buiding tracks system. Even if the game is not a TTD clone, the TTD system is better. May be the both systems should be available.
- Windows systems is a real nightmare. I'm a Windows user, and I use to click on the elevators theimselves in the windows instead of the elevator arrows to move theim. I click on the borders of the window and not on the bottom right corner to resize it...
- I can't find any usefull button/information in the trains window. How to order it to go in a depot ? How to... ???
And so many things that kill the gameplay. GUI is the most important thing in a game. A game can be dummy, if GUI and gameplay are good, it will be a best seller (see Tetris or Nibbles). But the opposite is false : even if a game is wonderfull, is the GUI is bad, then the game will be bad.

As a summary, I can say this game is like most of the X-like's softwares. Absolutely powerfull, full of functions and so on... But completely unuseable for a newby.
Even if the program is full of options, very well designed, it will be never perfect while any function will not be intuitive.

Well, I hope an ergonomic touch will be added in the next releases, this game should become one must to have

[Hajo]

I agree that the UI is the weakest part of Simutrans.

Intersting is, that despite some people joined the team explicitely to improve the UI, nothing really happened.

There was one question: How to send a vehicle to a depot?

There is no "go to depot" button yet, but you can include the depot in the vehicles schedule, and it will go there. The entry is automatically removed if the vehicle reaches the depot, so that the original schedule is restored.

PS: 2 minutes, I don't think that's a fair amount of time to learn a new game. I definitely needed longer to learn TTD when I played TTD first.

[Snorbuckle]

I definately agree with the track building system. That needs to be altered, and fast.

[Hajo]

I'm sorry, I can follow you. The trackbuilding system works quite well IMO.

You click star and end, and get the track. What could be easier? If there are obstacles in between, you'll have to remove them or to build around them, but you need to do that in TTD also.

[MagicBuzz]

PS: 2 minutes, I don't think that's a fair amount of time to learn a new game. I definitely needed longer to learn TTD when I played TTD first.

No I played more than 2 minutes But unlike other games, in Simutrans, when try to do something, I can't find how to do. Look, I tried the "Trains & Trucks Tycoon" last two weeks. 3D interface for a game like this was very new for me. I did many mistakes in my early parties, BUT, each time I wanted to build something or get an information, I got it without needing to search everywhere. The only thing I didn't found was to build bridges, but I found an other way (raise some land, and put a track on it, it will create a bridge also). All of this to say : No the problem with Simutrans GUI is not this game is a new game. I don't speak about doing mistakes in the early parties, but I speak about real GUI problems : informations are not where expected, buttons functions are not clear (I spent 10 minutes in the depot to understand how to create a train and give it orders. And for locos that don't accept goods wagons, I didn't saw any information... So I built 6 locos before being able to put wagons on it ! Really, not clear at all...)

You click star and end, and get the track. What could be easier? If there are obstacles in between, you'll have to remove them or to build around them, but you need to do that in TTD also.

Yeah, but, first, it's not clear (I click on a point and so what, nothing happen until I click a second time...) Futhermore, when I try to build a track longer than a screen size, then it can't, so this feature is unusable for long distances. TTD system is not perfect at all, but we can cross the whole map with one click only!
And then the Simutrans system create many curves, if I was able to put the tracks myself, then it would be a right line.

Simutrans seems to be a good game (quite not finished but it's another thing) but the current poor GUI is the biggest isue for me.

[Hajo]

Can you help us with suggestions? I mean, so far you told that there are problems. I don't know how to do it better. So I need your help - if you have ideas, how to implement the UI better please let me know!

Let's put track building aside for a moment, I'd like to focus on the depot window as a start.

PS: Once you buy a loco, the colored bars below the waggon turn red or green to show which ones fit there. There is no preview though. Most engines are general purpose engines, you must've been quite unlucky that you hit 6 specialized engines (EMU/DMU) in a row ...

PPS: you can toggle the map grid with # - turn it on if you have troubles to create straight tracks, it is a good guidance. I'm not sure how I need to weight the argument "can't build a straight track accross the whole map". I mean I don't know if this important; I think this is very rarely needed? (Simutrans maps usually aren't flat, so you can't build that long sections anyways ...) I usually build my tracks in sections of 10-20 squares, and I don't have trouble to get them straight.

[Hajo]

- First, map and game display are not in the same direction. It's very hard to know were to build some tracks.

Ok, I understand this one.

- Windows systems is a real nightmare. I'm a Windows user, and I use to click on the elevators theimselves in the windows instead of the elevator arrows to move theim. I click on the borders of the window and not on the bottom right corner to resize it...

TTDs UI isn't that different. If you play TTD, you shouldn't have troubles with Simutrans' windows. I don't knwo what you mean by "elevators". The windows are moved by grabbing the title bar and dragging them - most windowing system work this way, don't they?

TTDs windows are not resizeable, so I think it's already an improvement that a lot of Simutrans windows are resizeable, even if you have to grab the corner?

- I can't find any usefull button/information in the trains window. How to order it to go in a depot ?

Add the depot to the schedule. Actually I think this is very straightforward. You send vehicles to stations and waypoints by including them in the schedule. Why should depots be treated differently?

How to... ???

Yes?

And so many things that kill the gameplay.

Please, can you make up a liust and send it to me? Without knwoing the "many things" we can't effectively change them.

GUI is the most important thing in a game.

IMO gameplay, depth and features are the most important things in a game.

I agree that a good UI can help to improve the experience, and a bad Ui can spoil it, but without the games features, the best UI would just be an empty hull -> so far we focused on the content, rather than the packaging.

A game can be dummy, if GUI and gameplay are good, it will be a best seller (see Tetris or Nibbles).

Tetris had a UI? I don't know Nibbles.

But the opposite is false : even if a game is wonderfull, is the GUI is bad, then the game will be bad.

IMO Simutrans UI isn't bad. It's minimalistic, and usually tries to be as simple as somehow possible (except the places that other team members created, i.e. the new depot window), but I would refuse to label it 'bad'.

As a summary, I can say this game is like most of the X-like's softwares. Absolutely powerfull, full of functions and so on... But completely unuseable for a newby.

Actually I agree here. Simutrans definitely takes some time to learn. But then, most of the games that I played the last years came with thick manuals or quite extensive tutorials, so I don't think Simutrans is exceptionally bad in this area. It's definitely more complex than Tetris

Even if the program is full of options, very well designed, it will be never perfect while any function will not be intuitive.

Perfection is noble goal, but if we would reach for perfection we'd work years on one feature and never get somewhere. Simutrans is in large areas "good enough" but not better than needed.

I think a hobby project will die if too much pefection is involved. People want to see progress, and they need freedom. Quality pressure and too many rules kill hobby projects. You might have noticed, that most TTD clones die or died after a short while, while Simutrans is quite an exception in that it is in more or less continuous development since 1997/1998

Well, I hope an ergonomic touch will be added in the next releases, this game should become one must to have

I think with your help, we'll be able to improve the UI. First of all it's important to know what must be done to improve the UI, and then we can start to work on the improvements.

[MagicBuzz]

TTDs UI isn't that different. If you play TTD, you shouldn't have troubles with Simutrans' windows. I don't knwo what you mean by "elevators". The windows are moved by grabbing the title bar and dragging them - most windowing system work this way, don't they?

TTDs windows are not resizeable, so I think it's already an improvement that a lot of Simutrans windows are resizeable, even if you have to grab the corner?

Yes, you're right, but as I told, if any feature is not implicit to use, there it is no need of it. That the basis of ergonomy.

Add the depot to the schedule. Actually I think this is very straightforward. You send vehicles to stations and waypoints by including them in the schedule. Why should depots be treated differently?

OK. See : My train have a schedule. It goes from station A to station B. Great. But now, I just realize my wagon type isn't right... I need to send the train to the depot to change the wagon... It's a one shot order, it must not be integrated into the schedule... When a train do an emergency stop due to a problem on the tracks, this stop wasn't scheduled also, same thing, all of this is one shot, it must not be integrated into the schedule.

Please, can you make up a liust and send it to me? Without knwoing the "many things" we can't effectively change them.

OK, I'll play again and do a list. First thing, I'm surprised to see electric trains in 1930 ??? Can't you add a starting date for the trains ? Beca&use currently old trains are completely no use...

IMO gameplay, depth and features are the most important things in a game.

As I always say :
- Gameplay CAN'T be good is GUI is bad. How to play with something we can't use ?
- Depth and features as useless also if the GUI don't let you to see/use theim easily.

As an exemple, do you know VI is one of the most powerfull text editor that ever exists ? You can add as many features that are with Microsoft Word and more. But... Do you use it ? No... Why ? GUI is absolutely catastrophic. (is it a GUI ? lol)

Tetris had a UI? I don't know Nibbles.

Take a dictionnary and look for "user interface" Tetris HAS a UI.

IMO Simutrans UI isn't bad. It's minimalistic, and usually tries to be as simple as somehow possible (except the places that other team members created, i.e. the new depot window), but I would refuse to label it 'bad'.

Bad is too much powerfull word, I agree. But it is pretty closed to an elite public. Newby would never understand anything in the game, because most functions are "hidden", so, when you don't see a function you don't know, do you look for it ? Do you know in Microsoft Office, there is a "lite" version of Visual Studio (above 5000$ for one licence). Certainely not, because it is not wrote anywhere. But is is... It's the same thing. You have a powerfull software in your hand, but as you can't see it, you can't use it, you even don't try. Do for a newby, Simutrans is the same thing that VI. As not any function is clear, nobody use it, even if it's a powerfull tool...

I think a hobby project will die if too much pefection is involved. People want to see progress, and they need freedom. Quality pressure and too many rules kill hobby projects. You might have noticed, that most TTD clones die or died after a short while, while Simutrans is quite an exception in that it is in more or less continuous development since 1997/1998

I disagree and agree. Yes, a hobby project must not have too many pressure and too many rules. I think each function need to be developped separately, and developper(s) need ton concetrates on one thing at the same time (there is no time deadline, so you have not to distribute a perfect release each time you update the code.
But, ergonomy is not big rules. Myself, I'm a web designer, so ergonomy is 90% part of my job : "what would want the dummy user when he face to this screen ?" That's the question I ask myself hunderds times in a day.
Because on internet like in game, I a user don't understand what is in front of him, he leave the site, close the game, especially if it was free.
You can't ask a user to read documentation before playing. Documentation should used only for tips. GUI must be simple enought to let the user playing without understanding anything of the game. If after 30 minutes he loose because he spend all his monney by creating a dummy network, it's not the problem : during 30 minutes, he played. Currently, after 30 minutes, a new user loose the game, because he didn't found how to buid a track and put a vehicule on it. If I wasn't ever registered on this forum, I would close the game, delete the folder, and try another game, as most of users do when a software is not clear for theim.

[Hajo]

I'm afraid this way we don't get anywhere. I.e. the "go to depot button" is just not yet implemented. If you look at the Simutrans feeback froum, you see that it is on the list of planned extensions since quite some time.

I think you mistake Simutrans with a finished product. Complaining about things that are planned but not yet done, is not useful. We'll do it as soon as one of the developers has time for it.

I.e. the game starting date and the vehicle introduction dates: we took first steps to implement a timeline, but this just isn't finished yet. What you see is what we have so far: we want to start in 1930, we want to have electrified tracks, and we have far too few vehicles to provide a complete timeline. That's why all vehicles are availbale right from the beginning.

Anyways, this arguing will not bring us forward.

Let's start with the depot UI. How exactly can it be improved? What do we need to do? Can you create a design hwo it should work? We can then try to implement that design. Please try to keep things as simple as possible, we have quite a long list of things that we want to do, and improving the UI is only one of many important things. The less effort, the faster it will be done.


PS: If I'm not using emacs, I'm using vi. You hurt me A LOT with your wrong assumptions! I'm a long term unix user. Vi gui makes sense, it's small fast and powerful. You'll have to search hard to get a MS product that is as small and yet powerful.

PPS. the "elevators" (scrollbars they are called usally) work if you click and drag the button. The only action they do not support in comparison to Windows is that you can't page the content by clicking the area between the button and the arrows.

[MagicBuzz]

PPS. the "elevators" (scrollbars they are called usally) work if you click and drag the button. The only action they do not support in comparison to Windows is that you can't page the content by clicking the area between the button and the arrows.

lol, yes, scrollbars

on my computer, dragging it doesn't work.

for the timeline and go to depot button, these features are so much basis of this type of game that I thought it was deliberately omitted. As the game design started in 1997/98 as you told, I thought these features would already implemented if they were planned.

[Hajo]

The program is prepared, but we have too few vehicles to provide a continuous timeline. Creating the graphics was and still is a big problem for us; unlike TTD where lots of fans contribute images, there are only very feew people creating graphics for Simutrans.

I don't want to complain. I just want to explain that we (= the programmers) can't always do as we want, some thing depend on other peoples work and they all do it for free. So we must be happy about what we get, and are not in a position to demand anything.

ATM we're quite close to useable vehicle set and probably we can activate the timeline feature soon. There will be a few trucks that never get a successor, as are ships, but train engines shoudl be enough for a timeline until about 2050.

[MagicBuzz]

Let's go with the depot window.



1. What are these numbers ? Windows coords ? What use ? Debug ?
2. What the use of these arrow button ?
3. What's the difference between "sell" and "disember" ("vendre" et "demonter")
4. Schedule and lines... What difference ?
5. What are these bars under the vehicules ?
6. When passing the cursor in front of a loco, the the list of the possible wagons should be displayed herewith the other infos.

And then, the trainset list is not clear and will be unusable when more loco/wagons will be available. The 3DTT depot screen is quite perfect : we can see all the trains in depot list, give theim a schedule, add/remove/change wagons and locos...
The only bad thing is that we don't have information about wagons and loco we already bought (we just have the grafic...)

[mnorman]

1. the numbers are the co-ordinates of the depot.
2. the arrow buttons change tot he next and previous depot
3. The second option putst he vehicle in the depots storage.
4.
5. the bar shows which vehicles it is possible to have next. A red bar shows that it is impossible to but that vehicle at that point in the current train. A Green bar shows that it is possible to put the vehicle there.Mean that while is is possible to put that vehicle there, it cannot be the last one in the train.
6. that would be really useful.

7. Why put a screenshot of TTT in, as that interface was even less useful.

[Hajo]

I had this message written already, but due to a network failure I couldn't sent it until now. Mnorman already answered most of the questions, I'll just send the answers that seem to cover additional deatils.

3) Sell sells the vehicle, after that it's definitely gone, but you got some money for it. Dismember (??? I assume the button has another name in the english version) disassembles the train and stores the vehicles in the depot without selling them. If you want to use them later on again, this is what you want to do.

4) Lines are groups of vehicles that share a schedule. Schedules are individal schedules for vehicles that are not assigned to a line. This is mostly a historical thing: in old Simutrans versions each vehicle had it's own schedule, like they do in TTD. Since a few versions you can group vehicles into a line so that they share a schedule. The code offers and the UI still shows both options. I know that players use both options so they do not seem redundant.

5) Once you started to build a train, the bars show if a vehicle fits to the end of the train or not. The bars have a left side (gree = fits to end, red = doesn't fit) and a right side (green=can be end of train, yellow=needs another car to follow). Maybe more, as said, I don't know all details of this part of Simutrans code.

In the screenshot the engines that are green are suitable to start a train with. Engines that are read, can't start a train (usually this is the back engine of a DMU or EMU). Green-yellow can start a train, but needs a certain vehicle behind them, i.e. a coal tender or similar.

6) IIRC the space is completey filled with information about the vehicle itself. There could be dozens of waggons that fit to an engine, how to list all of them here?

So you suggest we should copy TTTs train depot? This is the first time that I see it. I don't see how I can give schedules or modify trains, not even sell? Also I don't see information which waggons will fit, and which don't?

MagicBuzz, now it's your turn: what should we change to create a better depot window?

[MagicBuzz]

mnorman > i'm surprised you told the TTT depot window is much useless than the simutrans. all simutrans features are in, and it's 100% much clear.

hajo > well.

For the disassemble button, I can't see the use of this feature. May be because with the Simutrans system we can edit one train at the time. Well if I understand the use of this button, then you just have to double-click on a wagon to disassemble it, so I'm no convivted of the use of thi button

For the lines and schedule, I think you should use the same buttons for all : a line is a schedule, and vice versa. There is no difference. You can assign a schedule to a vehicule and reuses it for another, you will have a line. So one unique button is much natural But as far it's an historical reason, I understand why this is not the case now

For the colored bars... hummm... how to say ? ok, nive feature... but all of us are not oracles So a legend or anything else should be usefull


And then,
I don't tell to clone the TTT depot window, copy is not a solution. but this ideas used in this game are pretty good, so why not reuse theim.

First, to assign a schedule to a train, you just have to click on the paper at the right of a the train (or the " ? " if it stil don't have a schedlue).
Then a popup window appears, asking you with schedule you want to assign. Here you can assign an existing schedule, create a new one, or "assign and edit" an existing schedule. The schedule creation window is very simple : right you have a cursor where you choose the price for transportation (with ttt, we can change the price of transportation for one line, it's very usefull when an opponent is making concurrence on one of our lines). To the right, there is a map, and we can click on the stations the train will reach. The finding path algo runs at this moment, so you can't validate the route if any station is unreachable.
At the bottom of the window, the list of the stations fills with the click stations names.

To modify a train, it's as much simple than it can be. Just double click on a loco/wagon in the list. It buy it. The loco/wagon is added on a new line (for a loco) or the last modified line (for a wagon)
You just have to drag and drop it to exchange wagon between trains, or change the order of the wagons.
To sell it, you just have to drag and drop in from the train to the trashcan.
You don't need to read anything, nor look for anything. This way is the first a user tries when entering in the depot window.

But you're right, there is no information about witch wagon can be used with witch loco (normal, TTT don't have this feature limitation). But I think a simple way is to add it is to change the description and names of the wagons/loco.

Exemple. The TGV. (VGT in TTT, the didn't have the right to use the real name) There are 4 different wagons.
-> Front/Back loco
-> First wagon
-> "middle" waggons
-> Last waggons

Then with a name/description clear enough, and grouped wagons/loco, the user will not be lost, and will not be surprised if he can't add a coal wagon to a TGV.

[Hajo]

For the lines and schedule, I think you should use the same buttons for all : a line is a schedule, and vice versa. There is no difference. You can assign a schedule to a vehicule and reuses it for another, you will have a line. So one unique button is much natural But as far it's an historical reason, I understand why this is not the case now

The buttons IMO can't be unified. The "new line" button creates a "line" data structure which is available in the line management window later on, so that you can manage your lines and see the lines statistics.

An individual schedule doesn't come with that, it's only a schedule for one vehicle.

Lines have schedules, but also much more data behind the scenes. Think of a line as a structure on top of schedules and vehicles, grouping vehiles together allowing easy management of large groups of vehicles, that share a schedule. The most frequent use is to group busses, becuase as cities grow you need more capacity and it is quite easy to add new vehicles to an existing line.

Individual schedules are more like special tasks, if only one vehicle is needed and you don't want to clutter the line managent window with too many single-vehicle entries.

[Hajo]

For the disassemble button, I can't see the use of this feature. May be because with the Simutrans system we can edit one train at the time. Well if I understand the use of this button, then you just have to double-click on a wagon to disassemble it, so I'm no convivted of the use of thi button

If you sell a vehicle and need to buy the same later on, you'll loose money because the old vehicle is worth less than the new one. Instead of selling you might want to just disassemble the train, and store the carriages for later use.

You can edit more than one train at a time IIRC, but I think I never tried that feature. There are '<<' and '>>' buttons that allow ot cycle through all trains in the depot.

[ucho]

The 3DTT depot screen is quite perfect : we can see all the trains in depot list, give theim a schedule, add/remove/change wagons and locos...

You are joking, right? IMHO 3DTT is totally unplayable due to its interface

[Hajo]

You just have to drag and drop it to exchange wagon between trains, or change the order of the wagons.

Drag and drop isn't possible in Simutrans UI. We need solutions that work without drag and drop gestures.

[Tyrell]

Ergonomic problems:
mmm, well got noting else to do, and the depot issue's sound interesting.
But I'm going to take my time for it (browsing around for additional info/insides, etc).
(if its to much itty nitty gritty stuff, just let me know, and I will try to find something else to do)
(just writing down what comes to mind and dropping it in this topic,
also solution are just suggestions that migh work better)

First things first.

At Start up:

- no mouse cursor.
the lack of a mouse cursor at the start (intro screen) gives a strange feeling to me of what to do next.
It takes away the first think that I'm looking for when starting a program,
the readiness of the program to accept 'direct' user input/control or at lease some graphical feedback of the fact that the game is done loading and ready to be played/continued.
(think intro screens/windows without buttons are generally perceived as waiting screens, that is the user has to wait untill the screen/window disappears, as there are no 'this window can be closed/controlled indicators)
the lack of button's on the intro window also mean there are no clear 'what to do next' indicators.

Solution: add mouse cursor to into screen + add [OK] button on the intro window.
The mouse cursor acts as a (additional, but definite) 'program is ready for direct user input' feedback/confirmation
The [OK] button give a clear guide to the user of what to do next, 'click here'.

- game started in Japanese (expected default -> English)
mmm, ok not a big issue considering the next option screens that will pup up will be the settings and language windows so its clear what to do next. still it gave a short be distinct feeling of ???? whats that ???

...