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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:24 pm 
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YNM wrote:
Auge wrote:
Hello
YNM wrote:
It's not ideal but I presume it's just because none are optimized for it. I mean, let's be honest, in houses typically you'll find at least one room in that same shaft alignment - it's meant to be the strongest part of the house, again.

The problem being in a lifts cabin during a fire is not the strengthness or weakness of the lift shaft, it's the smoke in it. The shaft is an air pipe and the trapped people in the lift cabin will suffocate within a short time.

Thank you. I'm not trying to get people down on the lift - dangers of getting the motors fail are higher in distress conditions I presume - I was just thinking if it was possible to somehow escape from the inside. The case with Grenfell is rather unique where the fire spreads outside, and retrofitting a wide staircase isn't going to happen (nor would it help given the layout), so the only room left would be the lift shafts. I mean, if it wasn't for the stairs, emergency exit shafts are also shafts with just similar properties to lift shafts and is just as chimney-ish.


Best option is sufficiently redundant stairwells, with proper protection from smoke (either smoke rated doors, or adequate ventilation). A single stair is not sufficient for anything but the smallest of buildings. Some of the best fire codes I've seen, both in terms of robust protection, and flexibility to work with unique buildings, are those in Japan. There buildings will typically have at least one external egress path. Where the building facade or size doesn't allow this to be a full size stair, it is often incorporated into trap doors with stowed 'rope' ladders on balconies at each level. Additionally windows to internal refuge areas are indicated externally for fire department to access and retrieve people by ladder truck. Architects are typically able to integrate these features into the design without compromise, and often use them to create interesting details.

If there is no room for more stairwells inside, they will need to be added to the exterior of the building. We often think of the wrought iron fire escapes on the fronts of 1880s era building in New York - but these were also post-hoc retrofits made to update buildings to later codes. There are other options for building something more robust that can work with the design of the building.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:41 pm 
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Dave wrote:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_riser

Dry Risers are pipes pressurised and used by firefighters. They're no use if the fire is already gutting the building. Hoses have the water pre pressurised and usually stored somewhere within, making them useful.


Yup. In our building they've left all the pipework for the hoses were they are, parallel to the dry risers. but removed the reels and drained them at source.

Train<In>Vain wrote:
I remember a device that was once used on US embassies: a fabric tube mounted in a frame hanging off the edge of the roof of the building. I wish I could remember the name of it. Imagine a long sock, open on both ends, just big enough for a person to fit into. Once deployed, to get from the roof to the ground, you simply step into the sock and slide all the way down. The diameter of the sock was just snug enough to cause just enough friction to maintain a safe speed. Anyone ever see one of these? It seems daft but it works. They made us go down one as part of our training and everybody got down OK.


Yes, though not the same, a similar principle was in operation for entertainment use on an underground multi-level trampoline I visited. You slide down these tubes but don't go too fast.

Pilot wrote:
As good an idea as these chutes and ladders sound, surely they aren't really required in a high-rise building of modern standards? After all, aren't high-rise buildings designed to contain a fire in a room for a minimum of 1 hour?

Of course, as this was a freak event that didn't happen, but in 99% of similar events, surely this would work?


Hopefully indeed we can remove any further combustible exterior cladding to solve this issue. There have been nasty fires inside London tower blocks before, after all.

YNM wrote:
Auge wrote:
Hello
YNM wrote:
It's not ideal but I presume it's just because none are optimized for it. I mean, let's be honest, in houses typically you'll find at least one room in that same shaft alignment - it's meant to be the strongest part of the house, again.

The problem being in a lifts cabin during a fire is not the strengthness or weakness of the lift shaft, it's the smoke in it. The shaft is an air pipe and the trapped people in the lift cabin will suffocate within a short time.

Thank you. I'm not trying to get people down on the lift - dangers of getting the motors fail are higher in distress conditions I presume - I was just thinking if it was possible to somehow escape from the inside. The case with Grenfell is rather unique where the fire spreads outside, and retrofitting a wide staircase isn't going to happen (nor would it help given the layout), so the only room left would be the lift shafts. I mean, if it wasn't for the stairs, emergency exit shafts are also shafts with just similar properties to lift shafts and is just as chimney-ish.


In some circumstances the lift is the primary means of escape, such as the BT Tower in London itself. For mass housing such fancy tech might not be as good value as many of the other methods put forward.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:29 am 
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Seemingly, British building codes now don't allow the sort of building Grenfell was. A building identified with this cladding is minutes up the road from me in central Tottenham. Only two years old, this building has sprinklers and much more stringent safety rules. The cladding will probably be removed, however.

Camden - notably a heavily Labour council (39 Lab, 12 Con, 3 other) - have already started removing this cladding from buildings in their borough. As an alternative (not necessarily noteworthy), Kensington and Chelsea is made up of 40 Con, 12 Lab, 1 other - councils of the opposite colour will always be seen to act first, but think we can all agree no politician comes out of this saga well.

How there aren't three figures of dead is absolutely beyond me.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:49 am 
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Dave wrote:
How there aren't three figures of dead is absolutely beyond me.
I suspect there are, but they're using the missing tag still and trying to raise it up slowly instead of going boom this many died. The British are good at being comforted into not overreacting if you spring it on them slowly.

Melbourne all the way in Victoria, Australia, builders claim that all of their towers built within the last 20 years in Melbourne alone use the same type of cladding as that used on Grenfell.
In 2014 one of these towers in Melbourne caught fire, the spread pattern looks oddly similar to that on Grenfell, indeed it was blamed for the blaze spreading so fast, so this type of cladding is known to do this.
Outside of Melbourne, this cladding has been used for at least 40 years throughout the country of Australia, but the cladding has been cleared and is 'safe to use' there, unlike in Britain where it was apparently barred. This might be set to change if they pay attention to Grenfell. Many buildings in Australia will be stripped of this cladding allegedly, but at least 2,700 buildings in just the state of New South Wales uses it, so the entirity of Australia will be much higher.

Sources: The Guardian, The Age & Metro.

Simon Cowell has brought together several artists and done a charity single, artists including Emeli Sandé, Paloma Faith, Robin Williams, Brian May, Craig David, Roger Daltrey, Rita Ora, Jessie J, Pixie Lott, & rapper Stormzy who does the intro, including several other artists i don't recall the name of currently. The song is actually quite good, and if you watch the video quite moving. Even if its not your thing, please do go to iTunes or wherever you purchase songs from, as all proceeds will go to the victims of Grenfell. The song is currently #1 on UK iTunes, and is set for a potential Top 5 entry on the official UK charts


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:56 pm 
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Apparently many of the claddings used fails some "test" from "the Government" :

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40397790

So, will all other cladded buildings will need to be freed of their claddings after the latest find ? This sounds as much as having unexploded WW2 bombs...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:24 pm 
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I saw a report today - admittedly unverified - that over 300 people are still missing, potentially many illegal immigrants.

I hope this is not true.

(Before you respond about how they shouldn't have been there, etc, etc. Luckily for us, we're not heartless in the UK, so our councils still have a duty of care to these people who are, after all, human beings)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:49 am 
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Dave wrote:
that over 300 people are still missing
Whilst it may not be quite that high. I do suspect the current confirmed death count is perhaps significantly below the truth.
There is also not just the residents to think of, they may have had many guests with them too in the building to account for.


Edit:
The final death toll from Grenfell will not be known for 'many months'. Possibly not this year.
BBC News

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