Model Electric Trains with Working Catenary/3rd Rail??

[NekoMaster]

One thing that bothers me in some games and models is when electric trains are running with 3rd rail or overhead wire collectors like pantrographs but there's no third rail or overhead wire.

Is there any model electric trains that have functioning overhead wires or 3rd rail electrification?

I mean it couldn't be that hard other then the extra set up require for overhead wires, but I imagine that realistic 3rd (or 4 rail tube lines) rail tracks could be made like normal track peices but with a 3rd rail added (or maybe connectors for adding your own)

Does anyone have any pictures or video links for actual live electric model trains? I'd really love to see something like that. I've seen model diesel engines that use tiny gas or nitro motors (which are either direct drive or power a dynamo like a real Diesel-Electric)

[Simozzz]

Most of modern electric locomotive models have possibility to be powered either through rails or overhead wire.
Here are photos of DB BR 112, where you can see two pins conecting pantographs to the plate and jumper which switches power source.

[Pyoro]

Like this?

"Casual" builders probably don't do catenary, but it's not that rare either. There's commercial kits to do it and it's not super-complicated to place or to use. In fact, if you use both catenary and the "usual" powered rails, you can run two different engines on the same track without using digital components, so there's that. On the other hand, some people use overhead wires only were they are actually visible (well, they're expensive, so it saves money), but that usually means that they aren't connected to any sort of power, just there for the look. It's not like it's actually notable, visually, were the electricity comes from, after all

Never seen any actual attempts at doing a "proper" 3rd rail visually, though.

[Translink]

The reason most modelers don't use catenary is because it is very fiddly, can be easily broken and makes maintenance much more difficult.

[Redirect Left]

It's one of those things that sounds easy on paper, but realistically is a bit of a pain to install and maintain. Can look amazingly good though if done well.

[NekoMaster]

Well I just figured that a spring loaded pantrograph and some solid core copper or aluminium wire would do the job. I think it would be more tedious work then difficult considering you'd have to make a whole bunch of posts to hang the wire from and set the wire around the track where you want your electric trains.

Also I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to modify existing model locomotives by removing the fake plastic contact strip on the collector and replacing it with a piece of metal and have a wire soldered to it that connects to the Positive DC input for the engine and have the negative output discharge to the rails as usual.

[Wahazar]

Conductive catenary is very ugly, because wires need to be thick enough to carry current and sustain pressure from current collector. In H0/00 scale, they looks like plumber pipes, not wires (1 mm thick wire is scaled like 3" pipe).
Moreover, modern DCC train control needs good quality of conductive contact and therefore doesn't work well with catenary.

For example, Fremo group is using 0.3mm thin wires - they are still scaled up, but looks 3x better than commercial ones:

(from http://www.lokschuppen-dominik.de/Ausst ... /Seite.htm page)

Of course such wires can't provide current for engine, they are only for aesthetic purposes.
They also need to be strained (like real ones) to resist press force from collector slider:
http://www.fremo-sued.de/ausstellungen/ ... itung2.jpg

[NekoMaster]

Hmm, if delivering enough current is an issue due to losses in the wires, perhaps someone with some electronics knowledge could up the voltage/current on the wires and then add electronics inside the model to step down the voltage/current to what ever the engines circuits/motors needs.

[arikover]

Problem one:
You'd have to equip all your locomotives with the transformer. That can be expensive, depending on how much engines you have. Yeah, I know, that was also the problem with DCC at first.

Problem two: If you don't want losses, you'd have to have a lower intensity, that means a higher tension (for equal power). At some point it can become dangerous for you if you accidentally touch the wires. Additionally, in case of bad contacts, you'll have much more electric arcs, which can muck up contacts on pantographs, and you'll need to clean them more often.

It seems to be a lot more trouble than it's worth. But who knows? Maybe someone already try, and had some success...

[Redirect Left]

then add electronics inside the model to step down the voltage/current to what ever the engines circuits/motors needs.

That sort of stuff generally generates heat. Which wouldn't be very good inside your model train. Ventilation isn't existant at all in model trains.
It is entirely possible, but would be expensive and potentially lifetime limiting for your model train if other parts of it (especially the motor and any capacitors on the board) got warm(er) than they should be.

[Pyoro]

If you're at the point were you're desperate to do something this complicated instead of just buying the premade stuff, you might as well you conductive coupling (or just wires) and transform the electricity in a modified wagon that you run behind the engine. Nothing to heat up, there. ^^

[NekoMaster]

then add electronics inside the model to step down the voltage/current to what ever the engines circuits/motors needs.

That sort of stuff generally generates heat. Which wouldn't be very good inside your model train. Ventilation isn't existant at all in model trains.
It is entirely possible, but would be expensive and potentially lifetime limiting for your model train if other parts of it (especially the motor and any capacitors on the board) got warm(er) than they should be.

Not really, a lot of low voltage electronics are rather cheap, building a circuit to properly step down the power would probably cost at most 20 bucks if you get decent parts.

Also unless its one of a kind models that will never be made again, I'm thinking you could replace the fake vents on models with real ones to allow the heat out. Too bad they don't have really tiny fans, but a large enough model might fit a tiny laptop fan.

[Redirect Left]

Also unless its one of a kind models that will never be made again, I'm thinking you could replace the fake vents on models with real ones to allow the heat out. Too bad they don't have really tiny fans, but a large enough model might fit a tiny laptop fan.

A model train isn't going to travel fast enough to generate any sort of realistic air-flow by itself, no matter how many vents you put into it. Placing a fan into it will also affect how it travels, as you've added an extra momentum in one direction, depending on how powerful the fan is and direction you put the fan. It'll also be a little noisy.

[NekoMaster]

Also unless its one of a kind models that will never be made again, I'm thinking you could replace the fake vents on models with real ones to allow the heat out. Too bad they don't have really tiny fans, but a large enough model might fit a tiny laptop fan.

A model train isn't going to travel fast enough to generate any sort of realistic air-flow by itself, no matter how many vents you put into it. Placing a fan into it will also affect how it travels, as you've added an extra momentum in one direction, depending on how powerful the fan is and direction you put the fan. It'll also be a little noisy.

The fans in laptops are so light I can't even feel any momentum when they run, not like larger desktop pc fans which you can feel it wobble if you shake them.

Also for an electric train a bit of fan noise would give it a little more authentic blower fan sound.

[Redirect Left]

Also for an electric train a bit of fan noise would give it a little more authentic blower fan sound.

We use vastly different electric trains.

[NekoMaster]

Also for an electric train a bit of fan noise would give it a little more authentic blower fan sound.

We use vastly different electric trains.

Most trains I've seen on youtube have a bit of mechanical noise like blower fans for the hardware and traction motors. I've seen Canadian, American, British, Indian, and Japanese electric trains on youtube and they all have some kinda noise to them.

[supermop]

If you really are looking for an extreme challenge in prototyping, there is no reason you couldn't do any off this - assuming you'll get enjoyment out of all of the difficult bespoke work and engineering you'd have to do. Building tiny custom fans isn't that much more difficult than any other part of running scale high voltage overhead. I still think that even at high voltage, the quality of the wire for an acceptable gauge will be the limiting factor. Anything small enough to look right and not be too stiff will either have way too much resistance, too poor contact due to small area or oxidation, or will be constantly breaking under tension, panto graph, or human negligence. A thick copper wire might carry the current, but I have a feeling it would be too stiff to get good contact out of - in bending it into shape you'll probably create many small bumps or bends that the pantograph will skip over. At HO scale or less you probably cannot get much spring force out of the pantograph, nor could you tighten up the wires without pulling all of your posts out of the board. 3rd rail is probably much easier - the shoe will be be very fiddly but once that is sorted everything else is already solved at scale.

If all of that someone isn't too daunting, I am not sure a transformer will burn up your engines too fast. Very small transformers exist to step 120v down to 5 or so for phone chargers, so if you want overheard to be at 60V or so (bear in mind that anything over 50V is going to be beyond 'painful' and into the real of dangerous and potentially fatal), stepping down to 12 volts shouldn't be that tough. At this point you may as well ditch DCC and come up with your own bluetooth or other RF based control, so that you don't have to worry about signal quality over a jumpy connection. Nothing a team of electrical engineers with lots of time and money on their hands couldn't do, assuming they have access to a well stocked shop, 3d printer, and don't mind ordering 5000 of a part they need 2 of off Ali Baba...

[NekoMaster]

Then again another way to maybe solve some problems with distributing power along actual wires would be like how they do it in real life with sub stations long the line to keep power constant and uniform, it'd even be interesting if the electronics used to step down the Mains voltage (120 or 240 volts) could be safely displayed in a manner that makes it look like a mini substation.

Also I'm thinking that if you don't want to spend the time to smooth out all the bumps and what not, one could maybe use a capacitor bank inside the engine to keep things running long enough for split second gaps in power.

In the end though I currently don't have the money or space to do any of this kinda stuff. I live in an apartment and I'm unemployed (looking for work though)

[Redirect Left]

in real life with sub stations long the line to keep power constant and uniform

Large rail sets using the normal rail pickup method also needs to do this, so yes. That'd work, but again be tedious, and you'd also want to hide them somewhere on the set, like behind scenery or in big "HIGH VOLTAGE" power boxes, that you do actually see across from rails in many countries.
Remember to airflow them too though.

[Doorslammer]

I'm mystified as to why this isn't in the perfectly fine Model Trains thread?