New Transparency GUI discussion

[wallyweb]

New GUI, needs new sprites.

Also needs r1846

r1846 zip also included ttdprotw.lst . I've never seen this before. I assume it's required for the new GUI.

Couple of observations:
1. Tri state effects are really good.
2. GUI buttons are a bit crowded. It's difficult/impossible to tell which is which without using each one. Possible solutions would be tool tips or better yet, have the first state display without the state symbol, with second and third states remaining as you have them with the symbols.

Transp_Options.png (6.56 KiB) Viewed 5655 times

3. miscmods.alwaysshowoneway gone bye bye ... I assume this is intended.

[George]

Transp_Options.png

I'd suggest to have 3 sprites per bottom and display them one by one than show three state on one picture.

[wallyweb]

Transp_Options.png

I'd suggest to have 3 sprites per bottom and display them one by one than show three state on one picture.

I'm not sure what you mean George ... The second line in my image was just for comparison.

[DaleStan]

r1846 zip also included ttdprotw.lst . I've never seen this before. I assume it's required for the new GUI.

No, that is so I can figure out why my debugging information never matches the crashlogs. I've now know what's wrong, which is an improvement, but I still have no clue how to fix it. Delete it, ignore it, print it out on the office laser printer. I don't care. Just so long as you don't print it out on *MY* printer.
Once the problem goes away, I'll ask TrueLight to take the it back out of the distribution.

GUI buttons are a bit crowded. It's difficult/impossible to tell which is which without using each one. Possible solutions would be tool tips

The tooltips are already there (or they should be, anyway). And believe me, it was worse. I knew I had to do something when *I* was getting the buttons confused. I shrunk the invisible portion of the selector, but it could be shrunk further.

miscmods.alwaysshowoneway gone bye bye ... I assume this is intended.

Yes, and ditto for hidetranstrees and miscmods.notransparentdepots. If there's enough clamour, I can provide moretransopts bits to set the initial transparency, invisibility, and lock settings. Provided no one wants more options. There is already a nice round total of 32 bits of transparency/invisibility settings.

I'd suggest to have 3 sprites per bottom and display them one by one than show three state on one picture.

1) Do you show the current state or the next state? If the former, how do you make it obvious which state comes next?
2) How do you make it obvious that the not-currently displayed options are available?

[eis_os]

You could make it a click extdropdown box... (It would allow a sprite & text for each entry)

[wallyweb]

Just so long as you don't print it out on *MY* printer.

Ooops!

The tooltips are already there (or they should be, anyway).

Probably my evil PC playing hide and seek again.

... and ditto for hidetranstrees and miscmods.notransparentdepots.

Those are in the patch settings too? OhOh.
/me wonders what other switches he is missing due to not updating his ttdpatch.cfg for a while.

If there's enough clamour, I can provide moretransopts bits to set the initial transparency, invisibility, and lock settings. Provided no one wants more options. There is already a nice round total of 32 bits of transparency/invisibility settings.

What other visibility options could we want? (heh ... HideAllVehicles that automatically defaults to "on" every April 1 while in the middle of troubleshooting a PBS crash problem )

[DaleStan]

You could make it a click extdropdown box... (It would allow a sprite & text for each entry)

I don't like things that require multiple click locations unless they save a whole lot of clicks. I'd much rather click twice on a three-state button than click once on a button, move the mouse, and click again on a dropdown. Assuming you know the order, clicking even five times in a single location is faster than clicking twice in two separate locations.

[George]

1) Do you show the current state or the next state?

Current

If the former, how do you make it obvious which state comes next?

The order should be always the same for all the bottoms - not transparent, transparent, none (that does not mean empty sprite). Then it may be described on wiki.

2) How do you make it obvious that the not-currently displayed options are available?

I do not think it is necessary. As soon as player opens menu the first time, he presses the bottom to get some (unknown) effect (or what for these bottoms are ) and as soon as he gets some, he understands the future use of the menu.

[AndersI]

As soon as player opens menu the first time, he presses the bottom to get some (unknown) effect (or what for these bottoms are ) and as soon as he gets some, he understands the future use of the menu.

Unless he happens to change the transparency of something that isn't visible on screen, then he files a complaint here that 'nothing happens when I press...'

Feedback should be given where the user expects it: at the point of action (that's where he is looking), not somewhere random on (or off) the screen.
(Basic GUI Rule #<whatever>)

The most effective GUI for these buttons would probably be a drop down menu as eis_os suggests, but that means two clicks for every action unless the menus can drop down automatically on mouse_over the buttons.

[DaleStan]

I'm unaware of a mouse-over hook in TTD.

[eis_os]

There is no "proper" way of doing things, I remember the reactions about the signalgui introduction... There aren't much 3-state buttons in the wild. I do like clever and easy to understand solutions. If you give the buttons enough tooltip information there shouldn't be a problem. If you start to create a 4 state button however I will get upset.

You could make a up/down control,
a drop down if you press long enough on the button.
A slider window, or make the window vertical and have each option in a group of 3 buttons.

There are endless ways to do it wrong
Actually we are in the good position that most people playing TTDPatch know what they do, so they don't need to be told how all kinds of stuff work and will try to find the information in the wiki.

Note: I think the discussion should be split of, we don't discuss the base graphics any more...

[wallyweb]

I got up this morning as I usually do.
I collected my Easter Eggs and chased a bunny or two.
I checked the nightly page for anything new.
It said "r1847 was ready for you".
I checked the changes.log for things that were done.
It said "Requires new base graphics: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=31471&sd=d" for one
But when I got there
The cupboard was bare.
Nothing was new, not even a yellow Easter Hare.
I also got an email notification "'Important: ttdpbase[w].grf updated for next nightly.1 at 'Transport Tycoon Forums'" with the usual instruction to "click the following link:
http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php? ... 6&e=675036"
Which gave me this important message "You are not authorised to read this forum."

It would appear something got pulled from the pile, so now I must ask myself .. should I or should I not avail myself of that new r1847 if there be no new base graphics to complement it.

/me looks for someone wandering around with Happy Easter Egg on his face.

[DaleStan]

The GUI discussion got split from the base graphics thread. It appears that the post numbers got changed when the topic was split.

Note also that changes.log records the last 5 days worth of changes, so the "requires new graphics" note will appear until the nightly on or after March 25, and that the linky in the log message still works.

It's difficult/impossible to tell which is which without using each one

In other news, here's slightly different set of sprites for the GUI. It DOES NOT replace ttdpbase[w].grf. Wally, is this enough of an improvement?

[wallyweb]

Ah! Here it is! And they made me owner of the thread too. I wonder is a salary goes with the job ...

In other news, here's slightly different set of sprites for the GUI. It DOES NOT replace ttdpbase[w].grf. Wally, is this enough of an improvement?

I started the patch (r1847) with just ttdpbase[w].grf and transgui2w.grf and I got this:

Fail_to_find_string.png (4.64 KiB) Viewed 5286 times

Without knowing what your changes are, here is my suggestion, assuming we wish to cycle though the town buildings:

GUI_Suggestion.png (4.16 KiB) Viewed 5286 times

[DaleStan]

Funny. I can't reprodu... Oh. Maybe if I tried using a build without version data. ... There we are.

The easiest solution is to load more GRFs. Or just switch the order; putting transgui2w first works for me.
But use this version instead; I blew it on the previous one; didn't cut enough from ttdpbasew.

That solution wouldn't be hard, but it would require a code change; that whole GUI uses a mere 18 sprites, not counting the title bar.

[wallyweb]

More GRFs did the trick.

Here's a comparison. The new one is a bit better, but in my opinion, not by much.

GUI_Compare.png (6.97 KiB) Viewed 5271 times

By the way, I'm not seeing any tooltips. Is it my system or am I missing a patch setting?

[DaleStan]

Do tooltips work for the close button, title bar, and pushpin button? The pushpin, especially, uses a completely different system than everything else for its tooltip.

The simplest solution is that you've forgotten how to display tooltips: right-click to make the tooltip appear.

Failing that, do you have a ttdptxt.dat? If deleting/renaming it solves the problem, post it. (But deleting shouldn't fix the problem.)

Finally, follow the first few directions for debugging a crash or hang with Olly. After attaching, click in the code pane (the upper left of the four panes in the CPU window), type <CTRL-G>, and then enter "631b4d" (without the quotes) in the dialog box. The second column should read "FF25 5C016A00". If it doesn't, go back and type <ctrl-G> again; sometimes it doesn't work on the first try.[0] Press F2 (the "00631B4D" will become black on red), then F9. Then, back in TTD, right-click on a toolbar button to display a tooltip. Olly will take over. In the registers pane (upper right), the first line will be "EAX <something>" What is that "something"?

If Olly does not take over, then right-clicking should have the same effect as left clicking?

[0] If it doesn't work on the second try, make sure you have r1847, and then take a screenshot. From the screenshot I should be able to tell you the what you do need to type.

[wallyweb]

The simplest solution is that you've forgotten how to display tooltips: right-click to make the tooltip appear.

How can I forget that which I never knew?
I have tooltips! I HAVE TOOLTIPS! I HAVE TOOLTIPS!


Thank you for pointing that out to me.
Now a clearer first state graphic , although nice to have, is no longer quite so important to me.

Now a question ... (Ctrl-click to lock) displays/removes the lock symbol ... I am still able to cycle through the states. Also, no matter which state is active, if I quit the game (with or without saving, with or without the lock) and then load it, that state is still in effect. What gets locked?

[DaleStan]

The simplest solution is that you've forgotten how to display tooltips: right-click to make the tooltip appear.

How can I forget that which I never knew?

OK, yes. That could be difficult.

Now a question ... (Ctrl-click to lock) displays/removes the lock symbol ... What gets locked?

Press [t], and watch what does (or doesn't) happen.
Preserving transparency state across new game/game load/game abandon is (1) the easy way to do things, and (2) the way TTD has always done it.
Pick whichever reason you like.

[wallyweb]

OK, yes. That could be difficult.

At my age? Actually quite easy ... almost as easy as forgetting things.

Press [t], and watch what does (or doesn't) happen.

Whoa! Does Merlin the Magician know about this? Shows how much I use the keyboard shortcuts.