I'm leaving TTDPatch

[DaleStan]

That said, my impression was that Assembly tended to provide faster code execution than the higher level languages. Would the difference be noticeable on my old 300Mhz Pentium II? (Not all of us are blessed with the resources required to buy our way into upgrades). I think I'll address that question to Csaboka, just to keep him on his toes while he has some dry ones left.

That may have been true years ago, when compilers were simpler. Nowadays, most compilers can optimize aggressively, and they usually end up with code as good as, if not better, than what you can do with handcoding in assembly.

I still believe that a competent assembly coder can always generate at least one of smaller or faster code than a compiler, because (1) they know what values are going to appear and where things are going to be called; and (2) they can use this knowledge to play games with the stack and the calling conventions, use self-modifying code, and even use ESP as a GPR instead of as the stack pointer.

However, no competent assembly programmer would *ever* voluntarily add code by replacing something with a call and doing the added work in a proc that is only called once, and there's a lot of that in TTDPatch. Bloody slow, and a waste of at least 6 bytes. It's the only way to do it, but that doesn't make it any faster.

I haven't done tests, but I'd be surprised if OTTD were much slower on a 256x256 map than TTDPatch is. It may even be faster, because it's optimized for recent processors instead of 386s.

I expect you're right there, provided the map in question doesn't have too many ships sailing from one corner to the other. Even YAPF crashes and burns on ship routefinding.

[Lakie]

I actually said "And so the death of TTDpatch begins... " in sarcasm, however it is true that the number of commits is virtually none for TTDpatch recently, and it doesn't help with Josef almost always being away, sorry for any offence this has caused.

It is quite possible that modern (quality) compilers can write better more efficient code than most Assembly programmers, however someone who understands advance Assembly should still match or beat it... (but someone like me, well, a compiler could most likely write much better and cleaner code, lol).

Right, please do not take swipes at OpenTTD, and please don't argue.

~ Lakie

[Dave]

Csaboka has valid points, I would have locked the thread, soon it will turn into whatever is best discussions

I don't think that's a very good thing to say really, Spiff. I think you're underestimating the maturity of most forum users. The posts following this comment support my theory.

As I say - Long Live the Patch - it matters not what OTTD does, for as long as the Patch is in existence, I am 100% behind it and it's developers.

[DanMacK]

I will continue to run both OTTD and TTDP. Autoslope is now in the ChrisIN versions, but I miss PBS. That said, I've been playing OTTD and the option for bigger maps, longer days, better Multiplayer, earlier start years and more spaced out towns is going to weigh on my playing time. I like to use oldre equipment and start in an earlier, simpler time. OTTD is giving me the chance to develop and play with older equipment than TTDP. I'll always be a patch fan, but I'll change and adapt with the times as well, much as Csaba has.

[athanasios]

Thanks for your info about assembly and speed Csaboka, Bilbo, DaleStan, Lakie. It helped me clear my wrong impression that assembly is still faster.

[Rubidium]

...Autoslope is now in the ChrisIN versions...

Not to mention it was (and still is) in trunk before it ever got into ChrisIN.

[belugas]

It would really saddens me if TTDPatch should end, as a project.
In a matter of fact, I sincerely wish that a new impulse, a fresh start can be achieved. The departure of Csaboka could be seen as a catalyst, a trigger to get forward. Maybe gain some new vocations among patchers to be.

TTDPatch has gathered so many talents around its different aspects over the years that it would really be a shame to let it go.

So... Long Live the Patch

[Hyronymus]

I agree Belugas but clinging to something when it's way passed their "best-before" date isn't a really good thing. I'm not forcing anyone to surrender TTDPatch but you have to be real about what can be done (still) and what can't be done ever.

[wallyweb]

" ... the report of my death was an exaggeration." - Mark Twain, May 1897

Csaboka has made a decision to shift his focus to OTTD. He has stated his reasons and they are valid. Unfortunately, some have taken this as a sign that the Patch is dead. Nothing could be further from the truth. Development work does continue, even if it be at a reduced pace. Without a doubt there are features that will be virtually impossible for the Patch to achieve, but as long as there are new proposals to be evaluated and there be Patch developers to evaluate them, the Patch will continue to grow. The Patch has been around for a while and without question it is approaching maturity, but maturity is not death. Contrary to popular thought, it is possible to teach an old dog a new trick or two. It is simply that the Patch has been taught most of those new tricks and is almost ready for prime time. What remains is a bug list to be cleaned up and a couple of features to be completed and then it becomes Gold. Few software efforts can honestly lay claim to that title. That is the next milestone. That is the next stage in its life, when a new player discovers it on the web, downloads it, and plays it with nary a crash to be seen. TTDPatch is most definitely alive and well.

[AndersI]

csaboka: Thanks for all the work you've done for the Patch, and good luck with OTTD patching. When you've fixed PBS, I might begin taking a closer look at OTTD, until then I'm TTDP only

[Badger]

csaboka: Thanks for all the work you've done for the Patch, and good luck with OTTD patching. When you've fixed PBS, I might begin taking a closer look at OTTD, until then I'm TTDP only

That is just what I've been thinking. It is a lack of PBS that prevents me from playing OTTD. I'll be TTDP for now.

[m3henry]

in response to original post: trips on computer cable and lands on a conveniently placed wooden stake.

in response to graph post: jumps off 3rd story house roof into an open top truck of mouse traps.

'And so the next cylinder in the ttdpatch D-7495 engine fails and the train continues to loose momentum.' I think would have been a better way to say it. and eventually it will become: 'no-one wanted to help the poor old ttdp train, so it was left to rust in the scrap yard, along with the other experimental engines that failed. ttdpatch saw OTTD whoosh past with a toot and a whistle, then he was gone, and ttdpatch never saw OTTD again.'

I will miss you, until the day when OpenTTD reaches a stage that I am satisfied with it's ttdpatch surpassing

[michael blunck]

Csaboka has made a decision to shift his focus to OTTD.

Well, IMO, he should have better made a statement like "I´m abstaining from coding for TTDPatch for the next future because I need more time for my studies", rather than to begin work for the rival project.

Honestly, I´m distressed by his decision. Not alone because I´ve been working together with Csaba on the development of so many new ideas which resulted in a multitude of new patch features over the years. I owe him gratitude. He was always interested in my ideas and problems, and he was always helpful in explaining his newest code, in finding bugs (in his and in my code), or preparing special "developer versions" for me.

Yes, sure, it´s his decision, no doubt, but I can´t really understand it. If it´s for the programming challenge, he could have stayed with TTDPatch and remain the most important and highest-regarded developer for this project for another while, but in that other project, he could well end up as only one of all-too many coders, and the question is if that´d be of any value, either for him or for that project. One thing is for sure: TTDPatch loses yet another irreplaceable person.

Yes, that´s indeed a severe incident for TTDPatch, contrary to your consoling words, Wally. Especially after we already had to stand the silent leave of Josef.

One of the most decisive differences between TTDPatch and that other project have always been the form of organisation. TTDPatch (although capable of developing its patches in C as well, not only in x86 assembler) has always been run by a very small group of coders under the auspices of Josef, and as long as that was a functioning organisational model, it was highly superior over the more or less "chaotic" form of development in OTTD (read back in the OTTD forums about this if you´re interested) where everyone could release a patch and build his own version, resulting in OTTD having at some time four (or even more) "official" resp "quasi-official" versions, not to mention those many privately developed versions (oh the joy of migrating from "Mini-IN" to "BamBam_IN" to the latest Nightly to "Chris-IN"!). In addition, the audience for TTDPatch was always smaller than that for OTTD, but it was indeed also more mature, more polite (especially back in those days of agmtt) and it completely lacked that specific form of "greed" which had been only introduced by that "open source" project. (Sorry to have to say this, but I had to face that too many times.)

OTOH, what would be those features "taking a long time to do" for TTDPatch (or even for OTTD) to unfold in the next future? And I mean features that would stand in the tradition of TTD rather than in modifying this classic game into an unrecognizable cross-breed of far too many frills and whistles together with the usual 32-bit rendered graphics "standard" of today´s shiny computer games?

At the moment, I can´t tell. Apart from far too many bugs still in TTDPatch, we got more than we ever dreamt of. We got new vehicles which may be sophistically tuned to fit everybody´s desire, we have new industries and new cargoes (thanks to Csaba!), we have PBS (thanks to Josef), we have a sophisticated signaling system on top of that (thanks to JGR) and o/c we have those amazing "ancient" features which everyone uses today as a standard: "build on slopes" and "electrified railways" (thanks to Marcin), and not to be forgotten, we have canals, rivers, locks (thanks to Oskar), trams (thanks to Steven) and many many more. And o/c, TTDPatch had all this prior to that other project, simply because the TTDPatch team was a group of premium developers and skilled graphics designers working closely together. So, what´s left to do? I don´t see any missing "large feature" for the near future, except maybe that "newairports" idea. (But, oh well, I´m not too interested into TTD´s air travel, so this may be a selfish argument ...)

O/c, TTDPatch still "lacks" "larger maps" and "MP over IP", but, personally (sorry again for the selfish argument), I don´t miss the first one and I´m glad that TTDPatch never succeeded in implementing the latter. In this way, the TTDPatch "community" (if ever there´s still one) escaped all the trouble with "NoFun4U", "Dr. Mengele", "Natasha bad girl" and all those other immature kids, resulting in an ever increasing need to keep MP over IP playable for the small group of "real" players, by introducing passwords, encryption, black lists, and whatnot.

Another point is that OTTD is based on copyright infringement and, according to copyright law of almost all countries, will be unable to ever get legal without an explicit arrangement with Atari, even not when eventually all of the original content has been changed/modified/whatever. That´s a fact, so please don´t try to question it yet again. For me, it´s an important point.

Just my 2cc.

All the best to you Csaba
kind regards
Michael

[Dave]

...
Just my 2cc.

I don't agree with everything he says, but this argument is so well laid out and many of the points are absolutely on the money. No one could have put it any better than the way Michael did there.

Of course we must mirror Michael's regards to Csaba and wish him all well.

I must, however, mentions this part of his post:

In addition, the audience for TTDPatch was always smaller than that for OTTD, but it was indeed also more mature, more polite (especially back in those days of agmtt) and it completely lacked that specific form of "greed" which had been only introduced by that "open source" project. (Sorry to have to say this, but I had to face that too many times.)

Things don't change - because this is still true.

[Csaboka]

Yes, sure, it´s his decision, no doubt, but I can´t really understand it. If it´s for the programming challenge, he could have stayed with TTDPatch and remain the most important and highest-regarded developer for this project for another while, but in that other project, he could well end up as only one of all-too many coders, and the question is if that´d be of any value, either for him or for that project. One thing is for sure: TTDPatch loses yet another irreplaceable person.

Well, it boils down to this: is it better to be the captain of a (slowly) sinking ship, or a passenger of a more comfy ship? It is indeed a bigger challenge to keep the sinking ship going, but is it more fun, too?

One of the most decisive differences between TTDPatch and that other project have always been the form of organisation. (...)

It's interesting that you see it that way. As far as I could observe during my dev years, TTDPatch isn't really organized. Everyone can just commit their code changes to the main sources, and if there are two ideas conflicting with each other (like, idea A making harder to implement idea B), those who commits first wins and forces the other to adapt his changes. The fact that the dev team is small (there wasn't really any time the number of active developers was more than four) and that devs usually work on unrelated features makes this policy less problematic. It is still painful when your modification overlaps something done by another dev - everyone has their own style, and it's not easy to understand a code written in a different style.

In OTTD, on the other hand, they told me that even people who have commit access to the sources prefer to discuss modifications with other devs before committing. They try to work on consensus, and can even reject a patch if they think it doesn't belong to the game. Of course, the GPL license allows people to make their own versions and include their favourite feature even if it's untested or inappropriate. So the "chaos" you mention actually stems from the fact that OTTD devs don't blindly accept everything into their sources, but try to organize them, while the "organization" of TTDPatch has very little organization. (Or we can say none since Josef isn't around.)

OTOH, what would be those features "taking a long time to do" for TTDPatch (or even for OTTD) to unfold in the next future? And I mean features that would stand in the tradition of TTD rather than in modifying this classic game into an unrecognizable cross-breed of far too many frills and whistles together with the usual 32-bit rendered graphics "standard" of today´s shiny computer games?

Actually, it isn't big features that made the biggest impress on me. Instead, they were things that are very nice, but would be "too much work for too little benefit" in TTDPatch. Small loading indicators over vehicles while loading/unloading. List of vehicles visiting a given station. List of vehicles sharing a schedule. Extended vehicle lists where you can create your own groups. The ability to add and remove GRF files on the fly. The ability to toggle between windowed and full screen mode, or even resize the game window without restarting. You can live without these small features, but once you've tried them, you don't want to miss them.

OTOH, I can think of things people wanted in TTDPatch, but couldn't get it because it would take a long time to do. Passenger destinations spring to my mind, for example. Or to go back to simple things, more ship types. Wouldn't it be nice to have a selection of ships similar to what you have with other vehicle set - ship types doing the same job, but with different capacity, different running cost etc, requiring the player to balance the factors? Or would the spirit of TTD somehow be broken if we had a bigger variety of vehicle types?

O/c, TTDPatch still "lacks" "larger maps" and "MP over IP", but, personally (sorry again for the selfish argument), I don´t miss the first one and I´m glad that TTDPatch never succeeded in implementing the latter. In this way, the TTDPatch "community" (if ever there´s still one) escaped all the trouble with "NoFun4U", "Dr. Mengele", "Natasha bad girl" and all those other immature kids, resulting in an ever increasing need to keep MP over IP playable for the small group of "real" players, by introducing passwords, encryption, black lists, and whatnot.

I hope I don't offend you, but this seems to be a rather twisted argument. Does a person who has no legs feel happy that he doesn't have to clip his toenails? Should TTDPatch players be happy for not being harrassed by others because they can't play on the Internet at all?

Griefers are present in every online multiplayer game, so by your argument, no game should ever support multiplayer.

Another point is that OTTD is based on copyright infringement and, according to copyright law of almost all countries, will be unable to ever get legal without an explicit arrangement with Atari, even not when eventually all of the original content has been changed/modified/whatever. That´s a fact, so please don´t try to question it yet again. For me, it´s an important point.

I don't want to question that, I just choose not to care. The state of TTD is similar to other abandonware games that are de jure protected by copyright but in fact their publisher doesn't care anymore. As long as no OTTD dev gets a cease and desist letter, I think it's safe to assume that no one minds what we do.

[Digitalfox]

Another point is that OTTD is based on copyright infringement and, according to copyright law of almost all countries, will be unable to ever get legal without an explicit arrangement with Atari, even not when eventually all of the original content has been changed/modified/whatever. That´s a fact, so please don´t try to question it yet again. For me, it´s an important point.

In portugal by our law, and because no portuguese company would allow a program made by it to be changed/modified or work in a diferent way it was design the patch is ilegal..

[DaleStan]

AIUI, TTD's EULA did not forbid reverse-engineering. Distribution of copyrighted property, OTOH, is an entirely different matter.

[Digitalfox]

Deleted by me..

[richk67]

Some of Michael's points are fair, but there does seem to be an enormous dose of antagonism running through it. From all the OTTD people I have encountered, I have yet to meet one with any anti-"the other project" venom.

If it´s for the programming challenge, he could have stayed with TTDPatch and remain the most important and highest-regarded developer for this project for another while, but in that other project, he could well end up as only one of all-too many coders, and the question is if that´d be of any value, either for him or for that project.

With Csaba's skills, there is no way he will be anything less than an important coder who all devs greatly respect. Some of the changes he has already made have been accepted into OTTD trunk.

The nature of OTTD has changed over the last year. Some people have become less active, and other coders have come to lead the development. This has changed the dynamic of the project, where now, if something is good and well coded (etc), it gets reviewed and accepted quickly. This has moved development on at breakneck pace.

And o/c, TTDPatch had all this prior to that other project, simply because the TTDPatch team was a group of premium developers and skilled graphics designers working closely together.

On this point, the no.1 thing that led to TTDP having the features first, was time. The core teams of both have been about the same size - OTTD core atm is only about 4-5 main coders; but who makes up that core is quite flexible.

I wish TTDP well - I always have. My preference for work is always OTTD, and I welcome Csaba. Time he started using a red light sabre

[stevenh]

Csaba, I was worried when I first heard your plans, only because I expected your reputation in TTDPatch would be degraded when 'translated' to OTTD.

richk67 eased my concerns:

With Csaba's skills, there is no way he will be anything less than an important coder who all devs greatly respect. Some of the changes he has already made have been accepted into OTTD trunk.

And so I just want to say thank you for all the coaching, all the lending of ears/eyes/braincells and all the other help you've provided to me and everyone else in the community. I do know that there were things I could not have done if you weren't up (when you should've been sound asleep) helping me.

So... From a lurking TTDPatch Developer, a heart-felt thanks and a wishing of luck for the future with OTTD.

Maybe I will just check out the OTTD trunk