The Transport Tycoon Wiki

[planetmaker]

Exactly like that. Thank you.

EDIT: yes, of course. The bot is just another user (pm-bot).

[Yexo]

What to me would seem logical is to move the GRF/etc bits, which are common to TTDP and OTTD, to a new wiki.
The present situation where these specs are hosted on the TTDP manual is not optimal. Particularly as TTDP is effectively dead and doesn't support half of the newer specs anyway.

That is exactly what is being done. The NewGRF specs can be found at http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net. The TTDPatch manual and other pages from wiki.ttdpatch.net are migrated to http://www.tt-wiki.net.

[planetmaker]

Maybe you have a list of page names (in the cases above they'd be LocationConditions, ECSTVFactory,...) which you want me to run it on. I'll use LocationConditions as my test page to see that it converts it correctly, so please don't edit that particular page till it's done

like this?

Code: Select all

ECS
ECS (de)
ECS-de
ECS-Ru
(...)

The translation pages seem to be called differently and I don't quite find them. Are they there? Or how are they named?

However, I ran the bot's fix script on all pages supplied and it should have updated them with the tables (mostly) being fixed. There might be the occasional case where it fails as the table does something not too common and my regex to replace stuff failed there. I tried to detect that by looking at the diffs the script gave me before confirming it, but that's not necessarily fail-proof either.

If you have the list of how the translated pages are called, please give it to me, too. Don't include any pages which have been fixed, though; on those pages the script WILL fail.

[George]

If you have the list of how the translated pages are called, please give it to me, too. Don't include any pages which have been fixed, though; on those pages the script WILL fail.

I do not know how Owen imports them. I have only old names.

[FooBar]

Translations of ECS pages don't seem to be imported at all. A search surely would reveil them, but doesn't.

[George]

However, I ran the bot's fix script on all pages supplied and it should have updated them with the tables (mostly) being fixed.

http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ECSHBanksTable ?

[planetmaker]

Ah, I forgot that one. The script failed on that one quite ugly which was also already visible in the diff I got for each page. Thus I didn't accept the change there.

[orudge]

For those who are interested, the entire TTDPatch manual should now be updated and fixed (in terms of broken wikicode, etc). I still want to do work on it to improve navigation and readability, etc, but that'll happen as and when I have the time.

Other parts of the wiki still need work, but I'll see to that as and when I can. Others can, of course, contribute too!

[Brumi]

I'm not very experienced with legal stuff, but isn't the GPL a bit too strict for the wiki?
As an example, recently I've been translating the ECS vectors, and if my translation is GPL'ed, wouldn't it force George to release the ECS vectors under GPL?

[orudge]

My preference would be the GFDL, or a Creative Commons licence, but existing contributors to the wiki/manual would have to agree to relicense their contributions first, which would be tricky to arrange.

[FooBar]

As an example, recently I've been translating the ECS vectors, and if my translation is GPL'ed, wouldn't it force George to release the ECS vectors under GPL?

Technically yes. To avoid this, you would have to provide George with permission to use your text under a different license. And that's not an ideal situation, given that you're not the only translator.

A solution could be adding a statement to the respective pages that the content on that page is also licensed according to whatever license George is using. This however is a bit tricky, as all content added before this statement is not covered by the new license, so theoretically every contributor to that page should give permission for the new license.

Also, technically, the translations from the old wiki are governed by normal copyright laws, which give George no rights whatsoever to use the translations added to the old wiki. I know that's silly, because why would you translate something if you subsequently don't give permission to use it, but it is what the law dictates. Given that it is highly likely that every ECS vector translator actually translated the text with the intention to have it included in the actual ECS vectors, it can be assumed that every translater has given implicit permission to accept the license that George is using.

Therefore the statement I talked about earlier can and should be added to the ECS vector translation pages without the risk that anybody will go to court. And if so, a judge will probably rule the same as I just reasoned. Note that this only applies to the ECS vector translation pages. The license of the other content is a whole different can of worms.

[planetmaker]

My preference would be the GFDL, or a Creative Commons licence, but existing contributors to the wiki/manual would have to agree to relicense their contributions first, which would be tricky to arrange.

You'd have my consent to re-license any of my contributions under CC-BY or anything compatible (that should cover all reasonable licenses).

[wallyweb]

I think we are picking at nits on this licensing issue. A wiki, by it's very nature, invites voluntary contribution and is open to edit by all comers. George's acceptance of this fact is confirmed and acknowledged by the mere fact that he chose the old wiki to upload his work and, after a bit of discussion and clarification he accepted the transfer to the new wiki where voluntary contributions and edit is still open to all comers. Any license implied or imposed by the wiki should cover any issues. Any contributor should know that their contributions are open to the world for editing, after all, by their simple act of voluntary contribution, they have already accepted and participated in the process. Conclusion? The wiki's terms have it all covered.

[planetmaker]

The wiki's terms have it all covered.

There's no general accepted "wiki's terms" - and general copyright laws apply in the internet as well as in the offline world. And in order to do exactly that, using it in a "free to edit and cite" manner, is what the license makes sure.

Just assuming "people who edit a wiki allow their work being used whereever" is not something which will save you in court. And "after a bit of discussion and clarification he accepted the transfer" is exactly what this license makes unnecessary in the future. Just assume this would be needed to be discussed with 100 people, 30 of whom you have no valid point of contact anymore?

As such, only using a proper license (also wikipedia does so...) makes it a non-issue.

[wallyweb]

As such, only using a proper license (also wikipedia does so...) makes it a non-issue.

And this wiki has not been similarly blessed? Note to orudge ... It would seem that you have a bit more work to do ...

[orudge]

You're not very observant, are you? Take a look at the bottom of every single page on the wiki.

(We had the whole argument/discussion about licensing when I set the wiki up.)

[wallyweb]

You're not very observant, are you?

I guess none of us were ...
@Planetmaker:

Content is available under GNU General Public Licence 2.0.

Does this not count towards the wiki's terms?

[planetmaker]

Content is available under GNU General Public Licence 2.0.

Does this not count towards the wiki's terms?

I am well aware of that. I was just under the - possibly wrong - impression that you considered it unnecessary, and so the discussion which was held upon transition.

[George]

BTW, I think OTTD wiki should be integrated into tt-wiki

[orudge]

Well, that could still happen, particularly since we're now running the same software. Licensing issues would probably have to be sorted, though, as well as figuring out a structure, so I don't see it happening any time soon, but never say never.