The Transport Tycoon Wiki

[orudge]

Could you please document what Josef definitely agreed to? From my conversations with him, it was still undecided how to proceed in detail.

I don't have the specific conversation handy at present, but I set out my plan for a unified wiki, and he told me he had no objections.

Apart from that, it´s not sufficient to get only Josef´s agreement to "use" the former TTDPatch Wiki content as you like. Instead, you´d need the agreement of the various content authors. And personally, I do not agree to get my input taken over into that "new Wiki". In consequence, all that input has to be removed from it ASAP.

It would appear that there is no specific licence assigned to the TTDPatch wiki, but much of the content was originally provided with TTDPatch (manual, NFO specs), and would de-facto be GPL. As such, as long as the original authors are credited (which is the case - the revision history has been entirely imported), there is nothing legally to stop the pages being moved across to the new wiki.

Now, your own ECS pages may be a different story, as they begun as an original work that wasn't part of TTDPatch originally. In which case, they can be removed if you insist. You can set up your own TikiWiki somewhere with them on, if you don't want to be part of the unified wiki. The TTDPatch wiki is remaining read-only, though, and eventually will be discontinued completely, assuming things are brought up-to-scratch on the current wiki. (I've begun work on the TTDPatch manual already.)

In fact, I am strongly against "cannibalizing" the former TTDPatch Wiki for no good reason. Especially, because your project did not turn out to be that "grand solution" (i.e. including the OTTD Wikis) discussed in the beginning. In fact, now it´s just "the Emperor´s new clothes" w/o any improvement, but even worse.

Well, integration with the OpenTTD wiki isn't decided yet, but at the very least, having it using the same software would make that much easier in the future. It's just not happening right now. It would be nice in the future, and it may yet happen.

There was discussion amongst OpenTTD users about taking the NFO specification and moving it to a new home, porting it to MediaWiki or another piece of software, due to frustrations with the current setup. I volunteered to host it as part of the TT Wiki plan that had been discussed previously. If I hadn't done this, they'd have gone ahead and copied it anyway, and potentially there'd now be two conflicting sources for the NFO specifications. Hardly a good outcome, I'm sure you'd agree.

I personally don´t like the MediaWiki style, and many of the once mentioned shortcomings of TikiWiki had been repaired during the last couple of months, e.g. the missing support for translations. So now, there´s no reason to destroy a functioning project just for the reason of "unifying" it with a totally insignificant other project (your obsolete "TTD Wiki").
In the last couple of weeks, much work has been put into (ECS) translations, and I am totally against this being "stolen" by another project. In the end, it´s the opinion of the original content authors which is of relevance here. It´s not the opinion of random posters in this thread, which have never contributed one line of text to the TTDPatch Wiki.

Perhaps the reason they've not contributed to the TTDPatch wiki is due to the fact it's using a relatively little-used, out-dated piece of software? I imagine just about everybody here has used Wikipedia, or the OpenTTD wiki, and I'm sure a significant number of people are more comfortable working with MediaWiki than with TikiWiki.

The translations are perhaps an issue, but there are ways of doing that in MediaWiki. All your old content is, of course, still accessible on the TTDPatch wiki until such time as we can figure out what to do with it, if anything, on the new wiki.

- writable access to the TTDPatch Wiki for keeping it alive. In case you´re not willing to host the current TTDPatch Wiki anymore, the release of the data base to set up that Wiki on another server in its current form,

Write access is not going to be enabled at the present moment. Having two wikis getting out of sync with each other will not help anyone. Active work is being done on the NewGRF wiki to bring things up to scratch.

If you decide you're not wanting to have your ECS pages migrated over, then I imagine it'll be possible to remove all the pages that *have* been migrated, and leave you with the ECS pages to do with as you will. I can also provide an export dump of the ECS pages.

- removal of all my input in your "new Wiki".

As far as I can tell, that's the ECS pages, and the Railway Dictionary?

[michael blunck]

- removal of all my input in your "new Wiki".

As far as I can tell, that's the ECS pages, and the Railway Dictionary?

Not at all. I´m speaking about all of my relevant input on the TTDPatch Wiki, including the NFO specs pages.

It would appear that there is no specific licence assigned to the TTDPatch wiki, but much of the content was originally provided with TTDPatch (manual, NFO specs), and would de-facto be GPL.

You might think so, but you´re wrong. As there was never an arrangement for a specific explicit license for the TTDPatch Wiki, common copyright procedures should be in force. Obviously, it´s only the distributed bundles of TTDPatch (and possibly its Manual) which are under the GPL.

- the revision history has been entirely imported

So the removal should be achievable quite easily.

regards
Michael

[Hyronymus]

Am I wrong or is the main reason you oppose the changes to the TTDPatch wiki that you don't like what has happened to the 'style' of (your) contributed pages? I imagine that with patience the style will be fixed to a readable and acceptable level and everyone can continue their great and appreciated effort to supply documentation for newgrf's.

[orudge]

Not at all. I´m speaking about all of my relevant input on the TTDPatch Wiki, including the NFO specs pages.

The NFO specs were originally part of TTDPatch, and as such they were GPL licenced. They don't just lose their licence because they've been ported to a different medium. All contributions to the NFO specs therefore remain licenced under the GPL, including yours. If they were rewritten entirely from scratch, then that would be a different matter, but that is not the case.

[jvassie]

Michael, I'm sure it would help the situation if you explained explicitly why you wish your content (debatable as to the extend of which is claimed) to be removed?

[orudge]

For everyone's reference, the Locomotion Depot Wiki has now been merged into the new wiki, too. The Locomotion main page is currently here.

[wallyweb]

The NewGRF specs wiki is completely separate from the TT-Wiki. So the StyleGuide on the NewGRF specs wiki only deals with NewGRF Specs.

As an author might conceivably contribute to the specs wiki and the TT-Wiki, and whereas both are to a certain extent related to the same subject, would it not make good sense to have a comprehensive/unified StyleGuide? It would certainly make the contributor's life easier.

With respect to the favicon/logo, if I recall, the TTDPatch logo was rather generic. Perhaps it's use could be continued.

[XeryusTC]

As you can expect when moving from one piece of software to the other there are people complaining about it. This always happens with a big change because people just aren't wired to handle it. Sadly enough this time the main people who complain about it are also two of the biggest contributors to the entire NFO "project".

Might I suggest to those gentlemen (and all other that do not like this change) to hold of any complains for the next few weeks (lets say a month) so they can cool down, get accustomed to it and then decide whether they like it or not. You might see that with some cool down time that you will actually like this change and start to support it. I have seen this more often and this has proved to be the best solution to this "problem". This period does not mean that you have to support it and work on it btw, it just means that you will not be throwing hissy-fits like is happening now. If after the month's period you still feel the same way you can voice your concerns.

On a more personal note to Michael: is it really necessary to try to sabotage the entire thing by trying to pull your input from it without a proper reason? Seriously, the only reason I can imagine you doing this is because you want to sabotage it so you can go back to the old wiki. Or does it have something to do with your personal vendetta against OpenTTD?

[Hyronymus]

I like XeryusTC' proposal to watch the restoration of the old style in the new environment take place for a set time and then re-evaluate the progress and the workings of the new Wiki software. It'll be nice if Owen can look at a way to deal with translations/languages in that time too.

[michael blunck]

The NFO specs were originally part of TTDPatch, and as such they were GPL licenced. They don't just lose their licence because they've been ported to a different medium. All contributions to the NFO specs therefore remain licenced under the GPL, including yours. If they were rewritten entirely from scratch, then that would be a different matter, but that is not the case.

That´s wrong.

According to information to be found on ttdpatch.net, TTDPatch (i.e. the program), and thus its source code, is open source under the GPL since 2001. But the same does not hold for the contents of the TTDPatch Wiki pages nor the TTDPatch main site. The latter is "copyright 1999 - 2007 by Josef Drexler", and the former even lacks an explicit copyright, hence it´s under the individual copyright of the newgrf resp text authors. There´s nowhere a reference that this content is "open source". In fact, it was never bundled with the TTDPatch program nor the TTDPatch source.

And even if it was (under the GPL), the actual blocking of the original TTDPatch Wiki pages by you would be an infringement of that license, simply because now you´d make it impossible for third parties to use and develop it according to the terms of that license (GPL).

To avoid that possible license infringement but keeping the original TTDPatch Wiki pages blocked, the only way would be to release the data base to interested third parties in the original format to give them access to that data (again!) and thus allow them to develop it further due to the provisions of the GPL.

Anything but this would be just theft.


So, herewith I request a data base dump to set up an own TTDPatch Wiki. For your information, this is the usual procedure under the GPL.

regards
Michael

[Hyronymus]

And even if it was (under the GPL), the actual blocking of the original TTDPatch Wiki pages by you would be an infringement of that license, simply because now you´d make it impossible for third parties to use and develop it according to the terms of that license (GPL).

But Owen is 'only' changing where and how the content is hosted, right? Everyone can still edit/maintian it, just a tad bit different than before.

[Yexo]

So, herewith I request a data base dump to set up an own TTDPatch Wiki. For your information, this is the usual procedure under the GPL.

Did you make up your mind already? First you claim it's not GPL, if that's true you have no rights at all to request anything (except removal from the new wiki, but only in those cases you actually hold any copyright). If it is GPL, you can request a database dump, but not removal from the new wiki (as long as credit is given and the license mentioned).

[orudge]

According to information to be found on ttdpatch.net, TTDPatch (i.e. the program), and thus its source code, is open source under the GPL since 2001. But the same does not hold for the contents of the TTDPatch Wiki pages nor the TTDPatch main site. The latter is "copyright 1999 - 2007 by Josef Drexler", and the former even lacks an explicit copyright, hence it´s under the individual copyright of the newgrf resp text authors. There´s nowhere a reference that this content is "open source". In fact, it was never bundled with the TTDPatch program nor the TTDPatch source.

Yes it was. Unfortunately, it seems to be hard to find old source archives other than diffs on the main TTDPatch web site, but this example of one of Csaba's versions of TTDPatch from 2005 shows, amongst other things, the following files:

• doc/newgrf.txt (which was the basis for the NewGRF specifications in the TTDPatch wiki).
• tex/* (the TTDPatch manual; which was the basis for the rest of the TTDPatch wiki)

The archive I linked to contains a COPYING file (the GPL version 2.0). The contents of that archive - documentation included - is licensed under the GPL, and as the wiki is a continuation of that documentation, the version we see today is still licensed under the GPL.

I also have quite a variety of ttdpatch_src.zip files, dating between April 2002 and December 2005, that I would be happy to upload if you desire further proof that the documentation was included and is licensed under the GPL.

As mentioned before, your own ECS pages would appear to be original work from you and others, and as there is nothing on the wiki explicitly licensing all content under the GPL, one can assume that that particular content is not GPLed.

And even if it was (under the GPL), the actual blocking of the original TTDPatch Wiki pages by you would be an infringement of that license, simply because now you´d make it impossible for third parties to use and develop it according to the terms of that license (GPL).

Not at all. The content is still available, both in the form of the original wiki and in the new wiki. I would be happy to provide a dump of the database, but I would really urge you not to go and create a competing wiki. That seems pointless, and counterproductive. If you're insisting on having your own ECS pages removed from the TT Wiki, then I would be happy to remove all other pages from the current TTDPatch Wiki and provide you with that.

So, herewith I request a data base dump to set up an own TTDPatch Wiki. For your information, this is the usual procedure under the GPL.

May I enquire why you're linking me to a MediaWiki-based download page, when you (presumably) want a TikiWiki dump?

[GoneWacko]

I was going to make all the points my predecessors have already made, so I will boil it down to this simple question: Why are you even making such a big deal out of it? Claiming copyright over something as mundane as a couple of documentation pages to a - when it boils down to it - obscure open source project is just sad, in my opinion. All the more so if you only do it to get your way. And yet more so if you only do it to get your way on a website that does not belong to you, for a project whose only purpose is to provide enjoyment for a lot of people, that harms in exactly zero ways by going in this new direction, and to which you seem to owe any and all respect or recognition that you might have obtained (within this community, anyway). I find it pathetic and a serious waste of time.

Patchman signed off the change. If anyone should have a say over what happens to the content on his wiki on his server, it'll be him.

As a side note, perhaps you should have considered (and possibly also pointed out) the lack of an explicit license before you wrote contributions to a site that does not belong to you.

Ultimately however, the concept of not being uptight about some silly contribution to an obscure open source project that a lot of people enjoy, remains to be the most important take away from this entire nonsensical discussion. Not only do you not stand to lose anything from the migration, you probably stand to gain nothing from forking the wiki either.

Can't the fact that TikiWiki has been going unmaintained for 6 years not be reason enough to migrate to MediaWiki, which is in many ways superior (the fact that half the internet's user base knows how it works is definitely a big plus)? Are any of the arguments not to migrate reason enough to act like your livelihood is somehow being taken away from you? Not as far as I can see.

Keeping people guessing as to whether I am a hippie or not, I shall close this declaration of my €0.02 with the totally lame but oh so adequate question: "Can't we all just get along?".

[JGR]

What to me would seem logical is to move the GRF/etc bits, which are common to TTDP and OTTD, to a new wiki.
The present situation where these specs are hosted on the TTDP manual is not optimal. Particularly as TTDP is effectively dead and doesn't support half of the newer specs anyway.

I'm not sure whether it's worth moving the actual TTDP manual to the new wiki, as it's not like anyone's going to make any meaningful contribution to it. You could probably jut leave the tikiwiki one up in read-only mode indefinitely.

Never having used or looked at ECS, I can't really comment on the details, but all this wrangling over licensing details seems to me to be rather fruitless.

[planetmaker]

Small update:
The most obvious problems with the wiki conversion, most notably the tables, have now been fixed for the NewGRF wiki, thus it is usable again.

Review isn't yet finished and still ongoing, though as it can still need a lot of tidying and also unification in naming things.

[George]

Small update:
The most obvious problems with the wiki conversion, most notably the tables, have now been fixed for the NewGRF wiki, thus it is usable again.

Tables a still broken.
http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/LocationConditions
http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ECSTVFactory
http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ECSTVGoldMine
http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ECSTVWaterSupply
http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ECSBVCoalMine
...
something wrong?
Did you finish the script+bot?

[planetmaker]

Small update:
The most obvious problems with the wiki conversion, most notably the tables, have now been fixed for the NewGRF wiki, thus it is usable again.

Tables a still broken.
http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/LocationConditions
http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ECSTVFactory
http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ECSTVGoldMine
http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ECSTVWaterSupply
http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ECSBVCoalMine
...
something wrong?
Did you finish the script+bot?

I meant the NewGRF-wiki at newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net, not the whole and much larger tt-wiki.net. The bot which auto-fixes the tables works now, yes. Running it on the tt-wiki.net is up next. What it needs for that is a simple list of wiki page names where it should look at as it might do wrong things when the pages don't follow certain rules which it relies on (thus I don't dare to run it blindly on all pages).

Maybe you have a list of page names (in the cases above they'd be LocationConditions, ECSTVFactory,...) which you want me to run it on. I'll use LocationConditions as my test page to see that it converts it correctly, so please don't edit that particular page till it's done - or tell me if / when you manually fix it.

[George]

Maybe you have a list of page names (in the cases above they'd be LocationConditions, ECSTVFactory,...) which you want me to run it on. I'll use LocationConditions as my test page to see that it converts it correctly, so please don't edit that particular page till it's done

like this?

Code: Select all

ECS
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ECSMVIronOreMine
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ECSVectors
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[George]

What it needs for that is a simple list of wiki page names where it should look at as it might do wrong things when the pages don't follow certain rules which it relies on (thus I don't dare to run it blindly on all pages).

Would the bot's change be represented in history? If yes, then its' results can be undone if necessary