Reorganisation of graphics forums

[orudge]

Hi all,

I'm considering reorganising the forum structure a bit. With TTDPatch and OpenTTD both supporting the NewGRF specifications pretty completely, it seems a bit pointless to have two separate forums any more. My intention is to create a new forum category, "Transport Tycoon Graphics Development", with the following structure:

- General NewGRF Development
Intended for general 8-bit NewGRF development. Topics specific to TTDPatch should be prefixed [TTDP], OpenTTD [OTTD]. Most projects these days work happily with both though, I believe. This would basically be the current TTDPatch Graphics forum.

- OpenTTD (32-bit) Graphics
Forum for specific 32-bit graphics for OpenTTD. This would basically be the current OpenTTD Graphics forum, with the 8-bit topics moved into the General forum and prefixed appropriately.

- Graphics Projects

- US Set
- BR Set
- Plane Set

(US Set, BR Set and Plane Set are just examples, but the theory is is that any project suitably big enough to require one can get their own subforum.)

I originally considered a structure which would see the general forum, but also separate TTDPatch and OpenTTD forums for projects specific to those platforms. However, are there really many projects that don't work with both these days? Myself and a couple of the other mods think it'd be better to split the forums on 8-bit/32-bit lines, rather than TTDPatch/OpenTTD lines.

The Graphics Projects forum is a new section that would allow any project that needed one its own subforum. The project should already have a substantial base of interest, and ideally some proven contributors, however. This would allow projects that need a bit more "breathing space" room to expand and organise their activities in a more orderly fashion. This also has the benefit that projects that want this extra space don't have to set up their own forums shielded off from the rest of the community, which I personally believe can be somewhat damaging to those projects. The set leader would also get some limited "moderation" abilities (sticking topics, editing posts and polls, etc), although full moderation will still be carried out by the main moderation team.

What do people think? This is just an initial consultation at this stage, but I do think things need a bit of reorganising.

[Doorslammer]

With projects ever increasing in size and grandeur, it is a logical step for the better.

[Chrill]

Basically everything apart from the 32-bit stuff runs on both TTDPatch and OpenTTD these days. Therefore, this arrangement is logical to say the least.

Regarding subforums for every major project, though, I'm not sure. These forums would consist of 2-5 topics, I assume. Are individual sets really big enough?

[orudge]

Well, I think it'd depend on the project. I can imagine some of the bigger projects could end up using a good few topics. The smaller projects would still be happy with a single thread in the main graphics forum.

[jonty-comp]

Basically everything apart from the 32-bit stuff runs on both TTDPatch and OpenTTD these days. Therefore, this arrangement is logical to say the least.

There are a few sets that are OTTD-only though, and a few less sets (correct me if i'm wrong) that are TTDPatch-only.

Regarding subforums for every major project, though, I'm not sure. These forums would consist of 2-5 topics, I assume. Are individual sets really big enough?

There are some that I think would satisfy the criteria. The BR Set forum has almost three thousand posts in it, and that's just for one set!

[Purno]

The 8-bit / 32-bit split is a good idea IMO.

However, a sub-forum for specific sets is overkill IMO. I've never understood why any set needs more than one topic. I've been involved with the Dutch Trainset and the 2cc Set, both projects which have a decent size, activity, and history. And I never have felt I needed more than 1 topic. Some projects seem to have a development topic with discussion and sprites and planning, and a seperate topic for releases. That's the max I've seen so far. Perhaps it's better to add a section specifically for GRF releases instead?

Note that if you want to add sub-forums for projects, people will bug you to get their own sub-forum. You'll have to make rules on when a project is big enough to get its own subforum, and you'll probably be bugged about switching over moderator status if suddenly a project changes leader. As well as you'll have to remove any subforums for projects which don't have any activities anymore. All moderators need to make more clicks to check the same amount of posts for spam or other things requiring moderating. Are you really planning on taking that big part of administration? IMO, it's not worth the effort.

Just my POV.

[audigex]

And that BRset forum is after a good few of the sprites were completed... probably another 1000 worth at least.

[frosch]

The proposal "Transport Tycoon Graphics Development" looks like there is no "Problems" topic in direct neighbourhood. So there might appear some noise OTOH the forum itself might be more hidden

Independent of that, I would like some subforum for technical discussions, questions and tools They always drop from the first page, and are hard to find if you do not know what stuff exists. There is some heavily outdated sticky index-thread, but a subforum might generally be more useful.

Edit: Another thought: If you decide for a "bigger projects"-forum, you might as well move the 32bpp stuff in there. I cannot remember more than 4 threads about 32bpp (excluding numerous of ask-and-forget topics). Also the specification of 32bpp graphics requite 8bpp fallback-graphics, once there appear "real" sets. So it would more fit into the main forum with a "[TTDP+OTTD+32bpp]" tag. But well, I don't see that in near future. (if someone is to blame, then the lack of tools though)

[Rubidium]

From a new user point of view I'd like to request that a "forward" topic is kept in the TTDPatch/OpenTTD main fora. Otherwise the new forum is quite unfindable for people who come to this forum via forum.openttd.org (redirect to http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=55) or the TTDPatch equivalent (http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=54).

Merging the graphics fora seems like a good step, also for new users because they do not have to figure out that they can also find information in the TTDPatch graphics forum. I have to agree with frosch about a subforum for NFO development and tools, or maybe more general so pngcodec also falls in that sub forum. On the other hand pngcodec can also live as a sticky in the 32 bpp forum and then you can make the NFO development (tools) forum a sub forum of the 8 bpp forum, like the NoAI forum is for the General OpenTTD forum.

Finally, it might be best to place the new graphics forum between the TTDPatch and OpenTTD forum so it has some distance from the general TTD/TTO fora, thus isn't associated with those as easily.

[AndersI]

I'm considering reorganising the forum structure a bit.

Sounds OK. The only thing I'm not sure about is the Graphics Projects subforums. There's a definitive risk of getting too many subforums, many containing dead (or at least sleeping) projects.

As a GRF user, I would like to see a more 'regional' grouping, like having the Swedish Trains, Swedish Houses, Swedish Roads, Swedish Stations and Swedish Industries in a subforum (not that it's needed for Sweden for the moment, just an example) rather than separate forums for each 'set'.

OTOH, you said this was the Graphic Development forum, then maybe there should be subforums for Trains, Road Vehicles, Ships, Airplanes, Industries, Stations, Roads, other infrastructure, etc.

[planetmaker]

I think joining the TTDP and OTTD graphics forums certainly is a good idea as most graphics are developed for both. Nevertheless, I don't think it's too useful to have an inflation of sub-forums concerning that, also not for single sets and I can only support Purno's words on that issue. Having a dedicated forum for the 32bpp might be worthwhile, though I only know one thread which really has much of the stuff in it. Rather I'd propose one sub-forum to it, the technical discussions forum as frosch proposed and keeping everything else in the general (O)TTD(P) graphics forum.

Cheers,
pm

[Chrill]

There are a few sets that are OTTD-only though, and a few less sets (correct me if i'm wrong) that are TTDPatch-only.

This could easily be dealt with the same way we do Screenshots. Tag it with [OTTD] or [TTDP] if it only works with one edition of the game

[orudge]

This could easily be dealt with the same way we do Screenshots. Tag it with [OTTD] or [TTDP] if it only works with one edition of the game

Yep, that's the plan.

Thanks for your thoughts so far guys, keep them coming. I'll post another post perhaps tomorrow once I've thought things over a bit more.

[Ammler]

I don't like the split from 8bpp and 32bpp, 32bpp isn't a own graphics system, it is just a improvement for the 8bpp graphics, so those should belong together. So either you make 32bpp sprites for base set like the most 32bpp works are or you make 32bpp sprites for a grf and add that to the project thread. (e.g.: spanish trainset now has the grf in TTDP forum, but if you use it in OpenTTD, you might not be aware of the 32bpp sprites)

My proposal would be a general/technical forum like frosch suggested and a project forum for the different grfs. And yes, special compatibility could be prefixed.

Now we have sets in TTDP Graphics which don't work in TTDP like 2cc or in OTTD Graphics grfs which would work in Patch too.

[DeletedUser21]

I have to say that I am in favor of Owens plan. It seems as the next move in evolving the forums and there belonging projects.

Funky to see in the current offtopic turmoil that people don't fight over what is better between both projects (TTDP/OTTD) and we grown out of that. Kudos!

[XeryusTC]

I am also in favor of the change. I personally think that the TTDP forums are for 8bpp projects and the OTTD forums for 32bpp in the current situation. However not everyone seems to think so and so 8bpp projects end up in the OTTD forums. The only project you would really expect this of is OpenGFX which is meant to be primarily/only for OTTD.
A seperate 32bpp project would also allow for splitting up the current massive 32bpp thread which can be quite hard to follow at times as multiple conversations run through it at once.

Note that I haven't read most of the above threads so I might've said things that have been said before.

[Purno]

The idea of having a seperate forum for tools, like for example GRFMaker, does sound like a very good idea.



Additionally, I don't think project having their own subforum will do them any good. As it is now I occasionally browse the topic of a project I'm not involved in, just to quickly check any nice graphics or news, or seeing if someone there could use my advice. (I still occasionally give some tips 'n trucs to new artists). But, having each project their own subforum with several topics inside, I don't think I'd quickly check them. I'm afraid I'll only check the subforums of the projects I'm involved in. And ATM that's limited to the Dutch Trainset and the 2ccSet. With the subforum split, I probably wouldn't have read the Generic Bridge Set project either, and I would not know they wanted my graphics to be GPL'd.

Summarized: IMO, project subforums are not necessary, don't do the projects any good, and give the admin and moderators a lot more work.



And, I wonder, where do you plan the new graphics forum to be categorized under? Looks like you can't categorize them under TTDpatch and OpenTTD, since they're combined for both. But when making a combined graphics forum, wouldn't you kinda be forced to also include a section for Simutrans and Locomotion there? (Just thinking out loud now).

As a GRF user, I would like to see a more 'regional' grouping, like having the Swedish Trains, Swedish Houses, Swedish Roads, Swedish Stations and Swedish Industries in a subforum (not that it's needed for Sweden for the moment, just an example) rather than separate forums for each 'set'.

I think that kinda categorizing is more of a job for GRFCrawler.

OTOH, you said this was the Graphic Development forum, then maybe there should be subforums for Trains, Road Vehicles, Ships, Airplanes, Industries, Stations, Roads, other infrastructure, etc.

1. Many projects include several types of vehicles.
2. Trains, Road Vehicles, Ships and Airplanes got a lot of similarities, graphic wise and code wise. What's the use of splitting them up?

Again, I think users should look for GRFs at websites like GRFCrawler, which also only have released projects included. Is a GRF user really interested in projects which are still in development? Do you think someone who's already registered at TT-forums and who's trying to figure out if there is, for example, a Swedish Trainset in development somewhere, would have troubles finding that topic?

In short; I wouldn't like a mass of subforums. We've always managed with 2 forums so far, and though some sort of split up between 8-bit and 32-bit makes a lot of sense, I don't think we should drastically increase the amount of (sub)forums. Development tools (such as GRFMaker) are IMO the only things that deserve their own forum (that is, one forum for all tools, not a seperate one for each single tool). So that GRF Developers got a quick overview on the available tools.

[DaleStan]

The idea of having a seperate forum for tools, like for example GRFMaker, does sound like a very good idea.

Is that one forum for all tools, or one forum for each tool. I'd go for the former.

I don't think project having their own subforum will do them any good. As it is now I occasionally browse the topic of a project I'm not involved in, just to quickly check any nice graphics or news, or seeing if someone there could use my advice. (I still occasionally give some tips 'n trucs to new artists). But, having each project their own subforum with several topics inside, I don't think I'd quickly check them.

Agreed. Subforums make it easier to ignore the threads therein.

But when making a combined graphics forum, wouldn't you kinda be forced to also include a section for Simutrans and Locomotion there?

No. Locomotion graphics, at least, are sufficiently different from Patch/Open graphics that it would be counterproductive to combine them.

As a GRF user, I would like to see a more 'regional' grouping, like having the Swedish Trains, Swedish Houses, Swedish Roads, Swedish Stations and Swedish Industries in a subforum (not that it's needed for Sweden for the moment, just an example) rather than separate forums for each 'set'.

Hm... Again, subforums make it easier to ignore the threads therein. Being fewer subforums than "one subforum per project", this is likely an improvement. However, bridge/road/rail sets are a logistical nightmare, and having any road/rail sets in a different (sub)forum than any bridge set that aims to support them seems like a bad plan.

[Purno]

The idea of having a seperate forum for tools, like for example GRFMaker, does sound like a very good idea.

Is that one forum for all tools, or one forum for each tool. I'd go for the former.

One forum for all tools, so GRF Developers got a quick overview of the available tools they can use to create their project

EDIT: That forum could also be used for stickies with information on how to code / draw something, like several stickies which are now in both graphics forums already.

[Kerygma]

I'd suggest one subforum for vehicles, one for infrastructure & anything else and one for tools and technical discussion.