[32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

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V453000 :)
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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by V453000 :) »

Both of you bring up some valid points, some answers:

- Difference!
Yes, I do believe it will take some getting used to, but at the same time I am quite convinced that the system is much more intuitive. The original pre-signals are cutely realistic-ish, but telling what they do from seeing yellow/white/yellow rectangles on them doesn't say much.
I also kind of hate how PBS uses red colour instead of something like blue/white. Red is the colour for the signal itself, not as identifier.
This brings me to the point SyberSycho points out, to make PBS orange/yellow.
- trains waiting at a yellow signal would look weird IMO, signals are binary - Yes/No, thus Green/Red
- when new players tell to each other which signal to use, standard-graphics player will describe path signals as "The red ones". Even though I change the body to blue, the signals are special by shining red when built and nothing is around them.
- most importantly, yellow is colour for pre-signals - Clarity is best reached by colour coding, that way when you see a signal, each colour means something:
- red/green = go / no go (except fuken PBS XD) - additionally this is defined by shape - horizontal = stop, vertical = go
- yellow = special logic
- blue = path
- white stripe horizontally = 1-way in reverse direction
- white stripe vertically = 1-way in correct direction

All in all, I believe if players get used to it, this system is a lot more sensible, and easier to see than any other signal graphics we have so far.
There will also be special graphics for old semaphore signals, I would like to keep a similar logic there for consistency. Those coming soon-ish.

The black x grey backside, yes, that is definitely not final, I am still playing around with the exact shades, some of the details on the tops/sides will need changing for better clarity, so far I was just testing the concept of the triangular design.

The new train set called PART I am working on will not have any teasers or previews. You will see it in it's full glory when it is released - which will probably happen the same day as BRIX 0.0.1. (I will not announce the full name of the acronym as that would spoil it too :P)
And here is why:
- It will be very unique visually, totally unlike any other train set
- The uniqueness will also mean that many people will not like it, but mainly gives a lot of WOW W-T-actual-F factor. The Work in Progress state would basically be like making a HUGE promise to you, so huge that it would almost be hard to imagine and believe.
It is much better to see it as a whole.
- so far I almost have the engine models complete, but without textures so they are just white mess
- It has some extremely interesting functionalities that are totally unprecedented in any other train set or NUTS itself. (and will be seriously unrealistic)

What I will say:
- It is not meant to be an update/replacement of NUTS, it will be just different
- There will be only a very small amount of engines, but the possibilities that you can do with them will be huge
- There will be only a few wagons, all universal
- There will be some super special rails that the trains run on
- All vehicles will be 4/8 long
- Support for all cargoes and unique sprites for all of them as well
- 32bpp/EZ is kind of obvious I guess

Some serious stuff is coming, and I can't wait to show it to you. It won't take super long, BRIX itself is almost ready for 0.0.1, so worry not, but expect something truly off the chain.

Moar signals soon. :)
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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by SyberSycho »

The reasons behind keeping path signals red makes sense.

As for the trains you've now really spiked my interest in what they will end up being. As for them being super unique I am assuming they aren't meant to be the trains for brix.
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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by V453000 :) »

BRIX will have it's own trains, also because 4/8 isn't fit for base game replacing sprites ;)
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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by R2T9 »

Very nice! Super excited for the release!
Just curious, what are your long term plans? ie, post-BRIX/PART?
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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by V453000 :) »

even though I say BRIX 0.0.1 is almost ready for release, the it still misses many sprites to replace everything the game has, like all trees (has like 25% so far), city buildings, industries, vehicles, disasters, GUI sprites, cursors, ... so even though 0.0.1 is a HUGE step because it does so many things, it will still need a lot of work.
Apart from that, if I get both of these NewGRFs "done", I might add some industries to YETI and finish the mechanism of it as I want it to be.

I want to get BRIX and PART done now, not thinking about other plans at the moment.
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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by V453000 :) »

Dear humanz,

I have to say I am very happy with how this design turned out in the end. I did a lot of versions, a lot of changes, and I really believe this form is working.

I attach a x2 and x1 zoom screenshot to demonstrate the clarity. At x4 it is just all bigger, but the real challenge of signals is x1 because they need to be easy to understand. :)

In the end I discarded the idea of PBS being blue because blue is a very non-intensive colour and red does the job a lot better.

The pre-signals have a lot simpler shapes which probably aren't very clear what they do, but the previous versions weren't that intuitive either probably.

Mr. North also had an idea that there should be a wire on the ground, leading from the signal to the track it is attached to. This is possible to do, with one railtype it is actually fairly easy, but with 3 very different railtypes from each other, it kind of stops working. And to add to it, if the players would replace only tracks with another NewGRF, the signals would remain weird most likely. That is why such a wire isn't included.

Am considering some shadows for better integration though.

What do you say?
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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by Alberth »

Signals looking very spiffy V!

Shadows would definitely make sense, at least in the BRIX world, as now they are one of the few things without any shadow, which looks weird.
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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by V453000 :) »

Thanks! Here goes an update - shadows and exit signals getting white instead of yellow. The shapes weren't intuitive at all and only confused people who are familiar with the old signal graphics.

Also, screenshot from a normal gameplay scenario, not just a loop of signals. :P

And a preview with text, and all 3 zoom levels to see how it works with various zooms.

V
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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by SyberSycho »

Gotta say I love how the signals make arrows with the lights. :bow:

A possibility for the exit signals would be to have them yellow like you originally had but with a white middle strip instead of the black. This way it kind of keeps those signals grouped while keeping the white to avoid confusion.

The 1-way path signal seems weird to have the do not enter looking bottom on the front side. Hopefully I explain this alright. Would it make sense to have the 1-way path signal look like the 2-way path signal on the front but with the white strip on the red part of it. Then leave the 2 backsides of it as they are now.

Edit:
I'd like to add an extra request and that is could you also make your signals a separate newgrf in addition to BRIX? I'd love to use them with any graphics set, as I love how I can clearly distinguish them from all angles.
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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by V453000 :) »

Yeah the arrows are my favourite part as well. (:

The exit signals had yellow stripe in the previous version, but after some discussions also with other people, it is good to keep the exit to remain white, people are used to that.
Whether there should be 1 horizontal or 3 vertical stripes, I can try it, but then entry signal would look inconsistent vs. Exit and combo being similar to each other. So the exit signal will most likely stay in the end.

Unless I redo also the entry signal. Entry signal would have 1 horizontal stripe, exit signal would have vertical white stripes, and combo signal would have yellow horizontal stripes. Which is basically the same as how the original signals look except the combo is actually easily recognizable from the exit. I have to try and see though...

I understand what you mean by the 1-way path signal. I did this for consistency in rotations. The only inconsistent in rotations is entry pre-signal at this moment, and having a gap in the front stripe goes against the shape I think. I appreciate that you quickly adapted my 1-way sign stripe logic, but I is probably not as intuitive as I would like... so now, when you look at the signal from the back side, you see the white arrow instead, which also shows the direction.
I will give it some more thought.

On reddit a guy brought up a point that the path based signals are too colourful for players who use only path signals everywhere. I am not yet sure how do I want to approach it...

And finally your question about separate NewGRF for signals. As I was already asked the exactly same question in IRC yesterday, I thought about it and the conclusion is:
BRIX will have parameters so you could disable/enable whatever parts you want. So in this scenario, you will be able to disable everything but signals.
I will see how this goes on the fly, because I can see issues with ground sprites - if you disable those, then it also needs to disable roads and tracks because they include ground tiles too. Regardless of the parameter grouping, you will definitely be able to choose whatever you want, while still being able to load it as static newgrf just for you.
I like the parameters because as you say, if someone likes these signals and gets used to them, they might as well like to force them everywhere they play.
Also, parameters are much less of a clutter for me to keep developing 1 newgrf instead of, say, 5 of them, without a real downside. :)

Moar coming soon

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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by V453000 :) »

Yet another version, this time almost strictly mixing entry+exit to become combo signal.

1-way PBS edited slightly.
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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by SyberSycho »

V453000 :) wrote:And finally your question about separate NewGRF for signals. As I was already asked the exactly same question in IRC yesterday, I thought about it and the conclusion is:
BRIX will have parameters so you could disable/enable whatever parts you want. So in this scenario, you will be able to disable everything but signals.
I will see how this goes on the fly, because I can see issues with ground sprites - if you disable those, then it also needs to disable roads and tracks because they include ground tiles too. Regardless of the parameter grouping, you will definitely be able to choose whatever you want, while still being able to load it as static newgrf just for you.
I like the parameters because as you say, if someone likes these signals and gets used to them, they might as well like to force them everywhere they play.
Also, parameters are much less of a clutter for me to keep developing 1 newgrf instead of, say, 5 of them, without a real downside. :)
That sounds like an awesome way to go about it.

And I also like how you somewhat incorporated my idea with the 1-way path signals. Looks very nice. The lager white bar also helps with what that reddit guy said about it being too much colour.

Edit: Forgot to say the new pre-signals look very nice and intuitive.
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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by V453000 :) »

Thank you :)

THIS HAPPENED. [see attachments]
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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by R2T9 »

Okay. Here is my opinion on the signals.
Honestly, I like the original ones best (the original TTD signals). However, the triangular prisms are an interesting twist, but they will take some getting used to. The Yetis are...well...just cute. This isn't to say I don't like them, it's just that they are very different than I am used to. Anyway, keep up the good work, can't wait to see the rest.
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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by SyberSycho »

I should of known you would do something like that with the yeti dudes. f*** brilliant! (You might of given me a reason to actually use the old signals instead of modern signals now)

A couple of suggestions for them.

- since they face the direction of the signal I see no issue with making their signs double sided. Since some of the angels at a quick glance may not be obvious if they are red/green even though they are in different hands and you have different shapes for both colours.
- exit signals should probably have some sort of white (maybe a white hardhat or even white overalls?) for the same reasons you changed the modern exit signals back to white.
- pbs signals having a hard hat vs not having a hard hat doesn't make it very intuitive. I'm just assuming right now that the one with a hard hat is the 1-way path.
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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by V453000 :) »

andythenorth wrote:You have won the internet.
Yay! Now what do I do with it ... I will probably upload more pictures so it can grow and prosper!
R2T9 wrote:Okay. Here is my opinion on the signals.
Honestly, I like the original ones best (the original TTD signals). However, the triangular prisms are an interesting twist, but they will take some getting used to. The Yetis are...well...just cute. This isn't to say I don't like them, it's just that they are very different than I am used to. Anyway, keep up the good work, can't wait to see the rest.
I pretty much agree. The original ones of course do feel the most natural, but people building signals have to zoom in to at least x2 zoom level to see them on screens with higher pixel resolution per inch nowadays. Hence something a lot clearer.
Similarly, in the original graphics semaphore signals are pretty much useless. I would compare using them to masochism, because telling which one is which is even that much harder, so I believe making them look like YETIs with at least some colours, is still more convenient for usage. And since most players don't use semaphores and don't miss them anyway, it is just a bonus. :) Anybody who doesn't like it, isn't forced to use it.
Time getting used to? Absolutely. And that is one of the reasons why the parameters to allow you to use them everywhere, once you get familiar with them.
SyberSycho wrote:I should of known you would do something like that with the yeti dudes. f*** brilliant! (You might of given me a reason to actually use the old signals instead of modern signals now)

A couple of suggestions for them.

- since they face the direction of the signal I see no issue with making their signs double sided. Since some of the angels at a quick glance may not be obvious if they are red/green even though they are in different hands and you have different shapes for both colours.
- exit signals should probably have some sort of white (maybe a white hardhat or even white overalls?) for the same reasons you changed the modern exit signals back to white.
- pbs signals having a hard hat vs not having a hard hat doesn't make it very intuitive. I'm just assuming right now that the one with a hard hat is the 1-way path.
Exactly, the old semaphore signals are just plain useless.

- I'm not sure if the face is enough, but I will try to make the back side more coloured, yes. Not completely though.
- I would totally love to have the consistent exit signals with white, but the problem is that the ground is white. Which means that if I make majority of the bottom of the signal white, they kind of get lost in the ground. Even with the shadow and stuff. That's why they are blue at the moment. I can try adjusting it a bit, but I don't think it is a huge issue.
- I agree that they aren't super intuitive, but I don't think they need to be that. They are just recognizable, and if you like them you will get used to them quite quickly I believe. It is probably a hard thing to guess so we will have to see how it goes when many people use the newgrf when it is released. :)
I will do some further finetuning and little adjustments probably anyway. :P




Thank you all for the feedback, I appreciate it a lot. :)

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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by lukasz1985 »

This one looks suspicious... like if he is preparing for something XD
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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by R2T9 »

Okay, so since the Yetis are a go, I have a couple of thoughts.
1. They shouldn't be naked.
2. Their clothes I think should somehow represent the type of signal that they are. Not sure how, but I'm sure you'll think of something.
3. Maybe they should be scaled down a little...? Not sure about this one...they seem a little too large. Maybe scale down the bodies, but keep the signs the same? I don't even know if that is possible to do, but just an idea.

Also, I like the Yetis better than the triangular prism signals. Keep up the good work :)
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Re: [32bpp/EZ]BRIX!!!

Post by Sylf »

R2T9 wrote:2. Their clothes I think should somehow represent the type of signal that they are. Not sure how, but I'm sure you'll think of something.
It looks like to me...
Naked yetis are standard block signals.
Yetis in red overalls are path signals. Probably the ones with white helmet are one-way, and no-helmet yetis can be passed from the other side.
Yetis in yellow helmet are entry pre-signals; yetis in blue overalls are exit pre-signals; yetis with both are combo pre-signals.

So yeah, the color of clothes and helmet do mean something to me, if I'm reading V's track building correctly.
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