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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:46 pm 
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What's this about?

For years there has been the DBSetXL, which does an excellent job of delivering German trains for TTDX. However, road vehicles have always been underrepresented. So I felt a German road vehicle set would be nice to have as an addition. Now that there are some cool new features for road vehicles are being developed, I figured it's about time to simply start creating such a set.

What is included?

The set includes a variety of about 33 buses from 1920 until now, ranging from fast coach types to inner city double deck types, with some articulated ones being thrown in between.

Concerning freight transport, there will be about 30 basic truck types, some of which will be available in several sub-variants. The extended cargo scheme will be supported. The models included will reflect real developments (from conservative design to cab over engine, from truck+trailer towards usage of semitrailers).

Finally, there are more than a dozen different tram types, from the simple beginnings in 1920 to the modern lengthy multi-part types.

Where can I find more information?

I have created a homepage for that purpose.

Current state

A test version has finally been released. This version includes all busses and trams. Since no trucks have been drawn yet, I decided to include the original trucks with some updated stats, so that the set becomes playable. This test version can be downloaded from the set homepage.

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Last edited by Uwe on Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:57 pm 
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i suppose you make it compatible with both MB's NewCargoSet as well as them new cargo system thingies? or am i saying something mindblowingly obvious and/or stupid. :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:48 am 
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Uwe wrote:
What's this about?
So I felt a German road vehicle set would be nice to have as an addition. Now that there are some cool new features for road vehicles are being developed, I figured it's about time to simply start creating such a set.
Very nice. But some questions appear. The first question is the scale. Possible scales are
1) 1.62 px/m that is used in DB set as train length measure, wlile the width and heigh are chosen in TTD scale, while keeping the height/length proportion as possible
2) TTD scale
3) George's 3.3px/m scale
4) others.

Uwe wrote:
What will be included?
The set will feature a variety of about 25 buses from 1920 until now, ranging from fast coach types to inner city double deck types, with some articulated ones being thrown in between.
Concerning freight transport, there will be about 20 basic truck types, some of which will be available in several sub-variants.
If you'll choose 3.3px/m scale, you could use some RVs, which are already drawn. they are (according to your list and some other german vehicles):
Mercedes buses:
Mercedes-Benz O6600H, Mercedes-Benz O 302, Mercedes Tourismo O315RHD
Other buses from the list:
Ikarus 280, Ikarus 66/55, Neoplan Skyliner L
Possible buses according to the items in the list:
Setra S431DT, Ikarus 620/630
Possible buses under development by Greyfur and me (from TODO list)
MAN M1MP, BUSSING NAG, Ikarus 566/180
Trucks:
Mercedes LP 1623, FAP 1215 (Mercedes NG 1215)
Also possible to add:
Opel-Blitz 3.6, because the bus, based on this truck, is represented in the bus list.

I do not know about other vehicles.

Uwe wrote:
The extended cargo scheme will be supported. The models included will reflect real developments (from conservative design to cab over engine, from truck+trailer towards usage of semitrailers).
Would it be a full vehicles set (including trams)? I mean whould it use the same IDs schema, as LV4, or would it be stand alone set with its own IDs usage schema?

The body types list (Dumper, Box, Flatbed, Tanker, Silo, Armoured, Refrigerated, Car Transporter) makes me to ask some questions.
1) what is silo for trucks? I never saw drop-down trucks except special quarry equipment, but it is hard to call it a truck and of cause it is not for TTD.
2) Why didn't you split the tarpaulin van? In fact it is a type of drop-side truck, not box truck
3) I'd suggest to use both platform/flatbed and low bed platform/gooseneck flatbed
4) Why not usng Timber truck/logging truck? And why to transport wood products in boxes? DBsetXL uses logging wagons for it
5) whi drop-side truck is missing? It is a widely used body type, and the DBsetXL has the similar wagon.
6) Mixer for cement?
7) Why sulphur and goods are transported in tankers? Is it correct?
8) why do grain, wheat, maize, potash, lime stone, cereals, oil seeds, cement are transported in silo? Aren't they transported in dumpers (or sometimes drop-side trucks)?
9) Why bricks, ceramics are transporte on flatbed? Should not it be drop-side truck and box?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:42 am 
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@Astath: I intend to make it compatible to these new cargos, yes.

George wrote:
Very nice. But some questions appear. The first question is the scale. Possible scales are
1) 1.62 px/m that is used in DB set as train length measure, wlile the width and heigh are chosen in TTD scale, while keeping the height/length proportion as possible
2) TTD scale
3) George's 3.3px/m scale
4) others.
I have not yet decided about the scale. As a rule of thumb I want to get smaller vehicles than your LV ones, more like the original trucks. OTOH it might be necessary to draw some of the early vehicles in a different scale so that they do not become too small. Some sort of playable compromise needs to be found, which I'll have to test out when starting drawing.

George wrote:
If you'll choose 3.3px/m scale, you could use some RVs, which are already drawn.
While that is possible, I am not too sure whether it would be a good idea, and would mean there'd be quite some changes to the vehicle tables. I'll start drawing the vehicles which do not exist in any scale and then we'll see how it'll turn out.

george wrote:
Would it be a full vehicles set (including trams)? I mean whould it use the same IDs schema, as LV4, or would it be stand alone set with its own IDs usage schema?
The idea originated while discussing the German tramset in a German forum, but for now, this set will only include buses and trucks. For compatibility reasons, I'll possibly end up using an ID scheme that makes sure other sets (especially tram sets) can be used together with this one.

george wrote:
The body types list (Dumper, Box, Flatbed, Tanker, Silo, Armoured, Refrigerated, Car Transporter) makes me to ask some questions.
Well, the main problem with that is that I am not sure whether I used the correct English terms. There are possibly some translation errors in there which I'll have to fix. In addition, the whole scheme is only quite basic and certainly needs refinement.

george wrote:
1) what is silo for trucks? I never saw drop-down trucks except special quarry equipment, but it is hard to call it a truck and of cause it is not for TTD.
It's a kind of tank, but used for all kinds of bulk cargo in granular forms. See this explanation for an example.

george wrote:
2) Why didn't you split the tarpaulin van? In fact it is a type of drop-side truck, not box truck
3) I'd suggest to use both platform/flatbed and low bed platform/gooseneck flatbed
4) Why not usng Timber truck/logging truck? And why to transport wood products in boxes? DBsetXL uses logging wagons for it
5) whi drop-side truck is missing? It is a widely used body type, and the DBsetXL has the similar wagon.
You're entirely right here, that's a translation error which I'll fix.

george wrote:
6) Mixer for cement?
Doesn't a mixer actually transport concrete to the construction sites? OTOH, it would certainly look very nice (if it can be drawn with enough detail, that is).

george wrote:
7) Why sulphur and goods are transported in tankers? Is it correct?
Goods can be just about anything, so why not have liquid goods? I am not too sure about sulphur, actually, I just thought about sulphuric acid, which is liquid, as are many other chemicals. It should make it easier for the player if he knows that all kinds of chemical stuff can be transported in a tanker.

george wrote:
8) why do grain, wheat, maize, potash, lime stone, cereals, oil seeds, cement are transported in silo? Aren't they transported in dumpers (or sometimes drop-side trucks)?
There is some truth in there, especially for the early years. But nowadays they're certainly transported in some kind of silo, to have better protection from weather and impurities.

george wrote:
9) Why bricks, ceramics are transporte on flatbed? Should not it be drop-side truck and box?
You're right, that will be changed.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:36 pm 
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Uwe wrote:
George wrote:
Very nice. But some questions appear. The first question is the scale.
I have not yet decided about the scale. As a rule of thumb I want to get smaller vehicles than your LV ones, more like the original trucks.
As I wrote here, original trucks have fast the same size as TTDs ones. Trailers and semitrailers make them to look big. With articulated vehicles feature we can allow the player to choose the length of the RVs consist himself. The bigger problem is the relation with DB set graphics. If you'd try to make RVs in the similar scale, as trains, they'd be much smaller, than TTD's ones

Uwe wrote:
OTOH it might be necessary to draw some of the early vehicles in a different scale so that they do not become too small.
If you find this Ok, then I think 3.3px scale would be fine for you ;)

Uwe wrote:
Some sort of playable compromise needs to be found, which I'll have to test out when starting drawing.
You have to find it on the FIRST vehicle.

Uwe wrote:
George wrote:
If you'll choose 3.3px/m scale, you could use some RVs, which are already drawn.
While that is possible, I am not too sure whether it would be a good idea, and would mean there'd be quite some changes to the vehicle tables.
Is it a huge problem? Do you have lack of vehicles IDs?

Uwe wrote:
I'll start drawing the vehicles which do not exist in any scale and then we'll see how it'll turn out.
Try a truck

Uwe wrote:
george wrote:
Would it be a full vehicles set (including trams)? I mean whould it use the same IDs schema, as LV4, or would it be stand alone set with its own IDs usage schema?
The idea originated while discussing the German tramset in a German forum, but for now, this set will only include buses and trucks. For compatibility reasons, I'll possibly end up using an ID scheme that makes sure other sets (especially tram sets) can be used together with this one.
So, you mean the LV4 schema. Ok. I'd suggest you to draw those vehicles (I mean design year), first, that are not represented in LV4 set. This way these sets would be a good addition to each other

Uwe wrote:
george wrote:
1) what is silo for trucks? I never saw drop-down trucks except special quarry equipment, but it is hard to call it a truck and of cause it is not for TTD.
It's a kind of tank, but used for all kinds of bulk cargo in granular forms. See this explanation for an example.
The second picture is a container truck ;) as for the first one, I can't understend, how does it get unloaded? More info would be nice.

Uwe wrote:
george wrote:
6) Mixer for cement?
Doesn't a mixer actually transport concrete to the construction sites?
Yes, it does, but is it a big problem how to call the cargo? As Michael wrote, ECS offers not cargos, but cargo classes. We can rename them if the name does not fit well.

Uwe wrote:
OTOH, it would certainly look very nice (if it can be drawn with enough detail, that is).
Did you look LV4? It has mixers ;)

Uwe wrote:
george wrote:
7) Why sulphur and goods are transported in tankers? Is it correct?
Goods can be just about anything,
Only the things, industry produce. The only lequid cargos that comes to my mind for ECS industries are chemicals, that are named as petrol and dyes. What industry produces anything (according to its' input) liquid? So I'd suggest to remove it now.

Uwe wrote:
so why not have liquid goods? I am not too sure about sulphur, actually, I just thought about sulphuric acid, which is liquid, as are many other chemicals.
We have to decide it to support them the same way in DBsetXL, LV, GRV.

2Michael: what do you plan to use for transporting sulphur?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:55 pm 
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George wrote:
As I wrote here, original trucks have fast the same size as TTDs ones. Trailers and semitrailers make them to look big. With articulated vehicles feature we can allow the player to choose the length of the RVs consist himself. The bigger problem is the relation with DB set graphics. If you'd try to make RVs in the similar scale, as trains, they'd be much smaller, than TTD's ones
How long is that Skoda type in reality?

I have read through the threads which discussed all the scale issues. RVs can't be done in train scale, that's clear to me. They need to fit together with the trams that are being developed, because they will share the roads with them.

george wrote:
Uwe wrote:
Some sort of playable compromise needs to be found, which I'll have to test out when starting drawing.
You have to find it on the FIRST vehicle.
Which is exactly what I am going to do. I'll test one vehicle at different scales before finally deciding.

George wrote:
Uwe wrote:
George wrote:
If you'll choose 3.3px/m scale, you could use some RVs, which are already drawn.
While that is possible, I am not too sure whether it would be a good idea, and would mean there'd be quite some changes to the vehicle tables.
Is it a huge problem? Do you have lack of vehicles IDs?
The problem is that I chose the models in a way that a smooth development over time is simulated. That is, each more modern model should be a little bit better tthan its predecessor. I'll take a closer look at the models you mentioned and see if something would fit in there, but in general, I am trying to do my own models.

george wrote:
Uwe wrote:
george wrote:
1) what is silo for trucks? I never saw drop-down trucks except special quarry equipment, but it is hard to call it a truck and of cause it is not for TTD.
It's a kind of tank, but used for all kinds of bulk cargo in granular forms. See this explanation for an example.
The second picture is a container truck ;) as for the first one, I can't understend, how does it get unloaded? More info would be nice.
Unloading is done using pressurized air. The air is pumped inside and forces the cargo out. Other variants use hydraulics to tip the silo into a more vertical position. Here is an older type without this unloading technique, therefore the different position.

george wrote:
Did you look LV4? It has mixers ;)
I just read about the ID scheme, but did not look closer as to what you included in the set. I'll do that this evening, perhaps I can borrow some good ideas :wink:

george wrote:
The only lequid cargos that comes to my mind for ECS industries are chemicals, that are named as petrol and dyes. What industry produces anything (according to its' input) liquid? So I'd suggest to remove it now.
No. There might still be people who want to play with the original cargos only. Since the oil refinery produces "goods", why not transport them in tankers? DBSetXL does it that way as well.

george wrote:
Uwe wrote:
I am not too sure about sulphur, actually, I just thought about sulphuric acid, which is liquid, as are many other chemicals.
We have to decide it to support them the same way in DBsetXL, LV, GRV.
Does it have to be the same way? The important thing is that there is a vehicle that can transport it, the actual look of that vehicle can be different.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:36 pm 
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Uwe wrote:
How long is that Skoda type in reality?
8.7 meters

Uwe wrote:
I have read through the threads which discussed all the scale issues. RVs can't be done in train scale, that's clear to me. They need to fit together with the trams that are being developed, because they will share the roads with them.
Trams use trains scale as far as I understand.

Uwe wrote:
george wrote:
the first one, I can't understend, how does it get unloaded? More info would be nice.
Unloading is done using pressurized air. The air is pumped inside and forces the cargo out.
:( works for grain, but what about other cargos?

Uwe wrote:
george wrote:
We have to decide it to support them the same way in DBsetXL, LV, GRV.
Does it have to be the same way? The important thing is that there is a vehicle that can transport it, the actual look of that vehicle can be different.
It would be confusing, if you transport the same cargo in tankers by trains, but with dumpers by RVs :?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:42 pm 
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Quote:
original trucks have fast the same size as TTDs ones. Trailers and semitrailers make them to look big. With articulated vehicles feature we can allow the player to choose the length of the RVs consist himself. The bigger problem is the relation with DB set graphics. If you'd try to make RVs in the similar scale, as trains, they'd be much smaller, than TTD's ones

Scale isn´t a matter of the DB Set´s graphics alone. The real problem is that your road vehicles are larger than TTD´s rail vehicles, which is weird by itself and in addition their larger size is generating a lot of ugly graphical glitches.

I´d recommend to use a more useful scale for the road vehicle set in question.

(And no - I won´t participate into another TTD scale discussion.)


Quote:
so why not have liquid goods? I am not too sure about sulphur, actually, I just thought about sulphuric acid, which is liquid, as are many other chemicals.

Quote:
We have to decide it to support them the same way in DBsetXL, LV, GRV.
2Michael: what do you plan to use for transporting sulphur?

In the DB Set, "sulphur" is expected to be in solid form, hence may be transported in open wagons or in silo-wagons as bulk freight or in closed vans in so-called "big packs".

regards
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File comment: Transshipment of sulphur
P8250014.png
P8250014.png [ 32.67 KiB | Viewed 28586 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:25 am 
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michael blunck wrote:
I´d recommend to use a more useful scale for the road vehicle set in question.
Yes, I understand you opinion. But what scale do you suggest? 2.4px/m?

michael blunck wrote:
(And no - I won´t participate into another TTD scale discussion.)
You already do ;)

michael blunck wrote:
Quote:
We have to decide it to support them the same way in DBsetXL, LV, GRV.
2Michael: what do you plan to use for transporting sulphur?
In the DB Set, "sulphur" is expected to be in solid form, hence may be transported in open wagons or in silo-wagons as bulk freight or in closed vans in so-called "big packs".
So, dumper truck I used is correct.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:35 am 
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One side note, You can't simple select scale x in TTD for creating content.
TTD has no real fixed scale. And I think it doesn't matter gameplay wise if a vehicle is one pixel longer then in real or shorter if the proportion to the other graphics still is in a good condition.

It's all an optical tradeoff in TT, if you go strict by pixels no vehicle could use a tunnel neither could pass under a bridge. If you want strict scale sizes, you need to use a Simulator.

TTD is still a game, even with all realistic settings on it has it's on mechanic of reality.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:11 am 
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Quote:
(And no - I won´t participate into another TTD scale discussion.)

Dear Oskar, just to be sure that you know that we know:

Quote:
TTD has no real fixed scale. [...]

We know that.

However,

Quote:
I think it doesn't matter [...] if the proportion to the other graphics still is in a good condition.

Quote:
The real problem is that your road vehicles are larger than TTD´s rail vehicles, which is weird by itself and in addition their larger size is generating a lot of ugly graphical glitches.

regards
Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:05 pm 
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I found you've changed your page.

I'd like to strongly disagree with transporting tourist with regional buses. I think only coach buses should be used.

I'd like also to remind about drop-side trucks, that are missing yet.
Image
also logging trucks are missing

Image

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:47 pm 
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George wrote:
I'd like to strongly disagree with transporting tourist with regional buses. I think only coach buses should be used.
Partly agreed. The problem is that the first real coach types as we know them today were not available in the 1920s, what was available as coach back then would only meet the standards of later regional buses. So I'd say let the early (say until the 1950s) regional types be refittable for tourists as well.

george wrote:
I'd like also to remind about drop-side trucks, that are missing yet. also logging trucks are missing
Trucks of that type will surely make it into the set, don't worry. The whole cargo allocation scheme is only a very general proposition at the moment, so it's far from being final and decided upon. However, before doing small changes to the allocation scheme I first have to think about how I want to have the trucks organized in general. There will surely be quite some changes when planning the whole thing in more detail, especially when it gets to assigning vehicle IDs. This requires me to dive deeper into coding details first :)
After this has been done, there will be a more precise allocation scheme (since some types like car transporters should not be available right from the start), and not all truck types will be able to carry all cargos.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:15 am 
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All quiet on the road vehicle front? Not quite!

There has been some progress on the bus sector, concerning both drawing and coding. On the truck sector, development was halted for now, since it depends on some external factors (ECS, progress of articulated vehicles).

Two volunteers have joined the project, so progress is slow, but steady. However, as it's exam time at university, there won't be happening much in the next few weeks.

The picture shows some screenshots of the first vehicle running in the game for testing purposes (still, it's far from being finished).


Attachments:
screen.png
screen.png [ 42.09 KiB | Viewed 27969 times ]

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:10 am 
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Looking good, Uwe, Looking good.

I'm looking forward to this set.
I really hope that this will be an "alternative" to Georges vehicles when it comes to scale and size.
Nothing against Georges way, but most of it just isn't for me.

So keep it up, please. Do you have some sort of Tracking table online already? I might be able to help you a bit with certain things, hopefully.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:43 am 
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Quote:
[moved from TT-screenshot thread]
Well, fish or beer or whatever. I actually use your cargoset for all of my games, mainly because I like them, but also due to the lack of any other RV set on reasonable scale.
I do use some of Georges old LVs (version2 I believe) though.

Michael, I still have hope that you might rework your trucks now, with Articulated RVs and different Cargos etc.

I'm actually having activated the newcargo during this game as well but only use the fish to foodfactory to town sector, non of the beer stuff.

I think we are going bit off-topic...

Well, no. The CargoSet is very old and the first reason I still maintain it is because of its compatibility with the 2.0 stable Beta version of TTPatch. I.e., as soon as we´ll have the next stable Beta the subdivision betwwen .grfs for 2.0 and the alphas should be gone.

If I´ll ever put some new work into road vehicles this would be for this set here (german RV Set).

> Do you have some sort of Tracking table online already?

It´s here.

regards
Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:10 pm 
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Despite me saying there won't be too many updates in the next couple of weeks, there is a lot going on behind the scenes. The first double decker has been drawn, and I have coded a variety of other vehicles that had already been in the pipeline.
Note: not all vehicles seen in the screenshot are actually finished, as is the coding.


Attachments:
File comment: MAN NG313 of the late 1990s
ng313.png
ng313.png [ 8.28 KiB | Viewed 27637 times ]
File comment: An early double deck bus
buessing2.png
buessing2.png [ 7.99 KiB | Viewed 27629 times ]
File comment: The current list of vehicles that are drawn and coded (not necessarily finished to 100% though)
menu.png
menu.png [ 2.48 KiB | Viewed 27652 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:48 am 
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Those look quite good Uwe, I'll be keeping an eye or two on this thread.

Will help to complete the "German Experience" that Michael was waffling on a while back ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:27 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:42 pm
Posts: 796
Location: Sweden
They look very nice!

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Openttd.se!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:15 pm 
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Tycoon
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Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:30 pm
Posts: 16576
Location: Almere, The Netherlands
Yep, they do. Keep up the good work :!:

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Contributor to the The 2cc Set and Dutch Trainset. Inventor of the Metro concept. Retired Graphics Artist.
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All my graphics are licensed under GPL. "Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else."


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