Shares - could they be made more realistic?

[proudmoore]

In OTTD, the only purpose of shares is to buy them cheaply and sell them when they're more expensive - as many do in the real world. However, on the stock exchange, having sold them fairly quickly, there is a great range of new, cheap businesses to invest in. In OTTD, i tewnd to just buy the shares and never sell them, because they'll keep getting worth more - and i don't want to losre that little bit extra.

It would be more realistic if the owner of the shares was to get a percentage of the company's profits - a dividend. In order for this to be fair, sveral other things would have to be changed:-

1) When the shares were bought, the money paid for them would go to the company the shares are bought in - instead of vanishing. This means that there is some compensation for losing profits

2)The shares would be bought in lower denominations - e.g. 5 or 10%. This should be combined with a lower maximum share value - i.e. a maximum of maybe 30% per player - and a total maximum of maybe 75% altogether This would mean that the company the shares are bought in loses less profits.

3) In order to prevent the owner of the shares making unlimited profits, the shares would mature after maybe 4 or 5 years - vanish. This would alow other investors - i.e. other companies to make profits for it - and insure that the 'host' company wqould continue to make profits by shares. I'll try to make this clearer
-Company 1 buys 15% shares in company 2, costing lets say £15,000 on March 17th
-Company 2 is made immediately richer by £15,000
-Every year, for 3 years, Company 1 is given 7.5% (i.e. 1/2 of the percentagew of shares owned) of company 2's profits on March 17th
-On the third March 17 after buying the shares, the shares owned by company 1 mature - and vanish. No money changes hands in relation to the maturing, but the third dividend is paid.
-# Mar 17: company 1 buys shares
-#+1 mar 17 company recives dividend
-#+2 mar 17 company recives dividend
-#+3 mar 17 company recives dividend. Shares vanish
(# = year)
The shares must vanish as worth nothing in order to maintain company 2's profitability.

This might have to wait for a financial system rewrite (i believe that there is one in the works? care to correct me, anyone?), but would make the share system much more realistic.

[DaleStan]

The shares must vanish as worth nothing in order to maintain company 2's profitability.

Why? Even if 100% of the shares are owned by other companies, only 50% of the profits will be paid out. And that's "profits", not "gross income".

[Sacro]

But if you give out 100% of the shares, then you no longer own a company, and will no longer receive profits on it surely?

[DaleStan]

Grr... I misread that as

The shares must vanish as worth nothing in order to maintain company 1's profitability.

I'm still confused, though. There are companies IRL that do nothing except buy and sell other companies. And the shares they buy never "mature".

[Scia]

I am sorry, but I don't really get the idea behind scenario "3)". It is not realistic as shares do not just 'vanish'. Maybe you are confusing it with bonds, altough that doesn't work entirely the same as you describe it.

Regards,
Robin

[XeryusTC]

I don't like the maturing, if you invest like 10,000,000 in 10% shares (who would do that ) and you lose it after 5 years after getting 2,000,000 credits profit makes you lose a lot of money.
A better idea is to make shares fluctuate, this can be done by transport predictions based on the transport groth of the past years, age of vehicles, transport time etc. By this you let players pay more attention to the shares and lets them buy/sell them when the time is perfect. If this is being implemented the game could show a news message on the prediction of transported goods.

[MeusH]

I like the all ideas, also XeryusTC's about fluctuating.

But about getting "mature" and vanishing. IMO author's point was to give chance to buy shares of other company. It is quite frequent in OTTD world that all companies own eachother til' the end of the game.
Instead of vanishing, I'd say selling them. So after three years company would automaticly sell the three-year shares, giving other companies chance to buy shares. If they are fast enough

[proudmoore]

The idea behind making the shares vanish instead of being sold is that it is fairer. Since the money for them goes to the company they are bought in, logiacally, when they are sold, the company loses their value - which, hopefully having increased will be more. That is why they should just vanish.

In answer to XeryusTC's comment about the investment - if you can afford to invest that much, then you can probably manage without the money. however, the point is well taken. Maybe instead of vanishing, they would be paid back, but the money come 'from the bank' - i.e. appear, not come from any player.

**Where i said that you would get a smaller percentage of profits

Company 1 is given 7.5% (i.e. 1/2 of the percentagew of shares owned) of company 2's profits

that isjust an arbitrary value i picked ot of the air. It would be subject to change should this be included in the game

The idea behind this is to make shares more of a beneficial thing rather than a way to irritate people - as it often does to me. It would also destroy the way of share cheating in multiplayer

The reason the shares 'mature' is that then the player who owns the shares cannot extract the profits from the company the shares are in ad infinitum Again, the period of time should e decided uon after testing, should it be included in the game.

Hope this makes it clearer (and more popular!)

[Aaangel]

I was put on to this thread here by XeryusTC, It's nice to see that almost similar interrest to mine has been posted here. That said I don't really like the idea behind shared vanishing.

My ideas on the subject

[proudmoore]

shares need to vansih to make them fair. If you pay a lump sum for them, and then get an amount every year, you get off better far better than the company you bought them in - which could easily be used to strangle smaller companies. If shares vanish, then not only is extra money injected into the company the shares are in, but it allows other companies than the first one to get shares. There is the added bonus that people who forget they vanish won't rebuy, allowing others to buy - or a company to stay free.

[Aaangel]

If shares vanishes there is absolutely no point in buying them in the first place. I'm playing against 7 computer opponent on hard AI and I still managed to own 75% shares in all those companies because I made the best investments (regarding money making train routes) and therefore I think it's fair enought that I can buy the other companies out. Hell I could take over all the companies for a fraqtion of my money, but I would rather want a dividend then having to clean up those vehicles they all have that make a negative income, which I would have too if I did in fact buy all seven companies.

[proudmoore]

Having the shares vanish is there so that the company owning them can't extract that profit from other companies forever. Its more important in multiplayer though - as it is also a means to allowing other players to buy shares.

It also means that by having to rebuy the shares, you are injecting more money into that company. I know it isn't quite realistic as you would buy shares on the stock exchange, but its fairer in relation to OTTD companies. I honestly did work this out to try to be fair while making it more realistic

[KING]

how about doing this.
you can only have up to 49% of total shares in ANY company.
there is a new window showing what shares you can buy from "off-map" companys. (simply for the profit)
You can Also buy up to 49% of ANY industrie on the map.
the cost and profit of these are based on the production.
this way shares need not vanish. cause there will be like 2,000 shares around to buy.

[proudmoore]

sounds good - but a lower maximum level of shares in any industry means that more players can buy into more profitable industries - thats why i suggested a maximum in my first post about companies - it makes it easier for other companies to make money out of it.