IMPORTANT: Have your objects been mis-credited?

Wessex_Electric_Nut · Post by **Wessex_Electric_Nut** » 14 Mar 2005 18:04

scrat wrote:Hi Larry,

Although Ruud and I have been credited correctly, and I certainly appreciate the initiative to make all vehicles more accessible for downloads, I would ask that you take the NL set off your website and instead just link to its official website.

Both Ruud and I worked long and hard on the set and the website. The least we're owed is that any prospective downloader visits our site.

Regards,
Jeroen

I much agree on that, if only people know how much time we all take in creating these items, there might be a little more respect!

ChrisCF · Post by **ChrisCF** » 14 Mar 2005 22:37

I've got to say, I'm absolutely shocked and appalled by the behaviour from both sides. Fair enough, the people running the site (which I still think is lame making even reading the threads members-only) went and made the files available without even telling the authors, and in some cases without identifying the author (though I believe it's an author's responsibility to include a readme crediting themselves). Shame on you. Slap on the wrist, sit in the corner to think about what you've done, and make sure it doesn't happen again. Also, fair point for people that want to point to an unrestricted official download (i.e. one which doesn't require registration), that's perfectly normal, especially if development is quick, and the result is likely to change frequently.

But I'm disappointed, nay, disgusted with the attitude some of you have come out with. I mean, fair enough asking that someone tells you they're putting your stuff up, and at least mentions that you did it. I'd put asking for permission to be taking things a little too far - after all, what do you lose by having your work distributed? What do you gain by telling people they can't post it? Anyone would think that you don't actually want anyone to play with your mods! You'd think it would stop there, but oh, no, that's just the tip of the iceberg. We have people demanding their work is taken down! When I first read it, I thought it was a joke, and now I see the follow up, I see it's serious, and it's making me physically sick. As far as I'm concerned, this forum is supposed to be a platform for people working on mods to talk about modding, and taking action to improve the game. But this attitude? That won't help improve the game. In fact, if anything, it is detrimental to the community. If you are committed to improving the game, you'll rise above this mess, otherwise you can get lost. GROW UP, and take your cry-babe s*** elsewhere.

I never thought I'd have to say this again, but for the sake of anything holy,

<image removed by Steve, you know why.>

If it comes to a choice between arguing over who can download my work and where, or continuing to produce quality mods for the community, I know what my first choice would be.

Hyronymus · Post by **Hyronymus** » 14 Mar 2005 23:20

But Chris, it's not about deciding between those two things you mention and I don't believe anyone in this topic indicated they were having a hard time dealing with it either. And as much as you don't approve of how some fellow forum members reacted nothing gives you the right to react like this. If you can't stand it you should just stop reading this topic, climb on a roof and cry like a wolf.

Wessex_Electric_Nut · Post by **Wessex_Electric_Nut** » 15 Mar 2005 09:46

ChrisCF wrote:I've got to say, I'm absolutely shocked and appalled
But I'm disappointed, nay, disgusted with the attitude some of you have come out with. I mean, fair enough asking that someone tells you they're putting your stuff up, and at least mentions that you did it. I'd put asking for permission to be taking things a little too far - after all, what do you lose by having your work distributed? What do you gain by telling people they can't post it? Anyone would think that you don't actually want anyone to play with your mods! You'd think it would stop there, but oh, no, that's just the tip of the iceberg. We have people demanding their work is taken down! When I first read it, I thought it was a joke, and now I see the follow up, I see it's serious, and it's making me physically sick. As far as I'm concerned, this forum is supposed to be a platform for people working on mods to talk about modding, and taking action to improve the game. But this attitude? That won't help improve the game. In fact, if anything, it is detrimental to the community. If you are committed to improving the game, you'll rise above this mess, otherwise you can get lost. GROW UP, and take your cry-babe s*** elsewhere. I never thought I'd have to say this again, but for
the sake of anything holy

Do you have ANY regard or RESPECT for other peoples work? Do you have ANY idea who creates the work? Do you have ANY idea HOW LONG IT TAKES us to produce some quality content? If none of these question are answered, and you haven't bothered to do your research, then I find you pretty damm sad for even commeting.

My problem is not only the website owner who took my work in the first place, but the fact that my work was also in beta testing, where it was and still is incomplete in certain areas, or I am not simply happy with the result. The last thing I want to do is upload a file here, there and then everywhere else, I cannot simply be bothered as it creates unneccesary work for me and others.

The other thing is that goes against my Interlectual Property Rights, look here to what John_Banks of Trainz fame wrote: http://forums.auran.com/TRS2004/forum/s ... genumber=3
(its on the last page)

ChrisCF wrote: <Chris's removed image>

If it comes to a choice between arguing over who can download my work and where, or continuing to produce quality mods for the community, I know what my first choice would be.

EXCUSE ME??? That kind of langruage I DO not want to here in here for Other peoples sakes. It appears to me that you are one of these people, who say "oh, make the content, otherwise for everything else, then **** off!". Sorry mate!! I don't work like that, "If you don't give me the RESPECT I deserve, then you do that!". Besides, you have the option NOT to read this thread, you choose to read it, you have to expect this.

I hope one of these days, you will grow up and understand this.
(Mods, please A) end the discussion ONCE and for ALL, and B) At least consider this individuals behaviour and respect for others, I find him "unfit" for contributing in the forum after that!)

Steve · Post by **Steve** » 15 Mar 2005 10:44

Well, Chris, once again you express your views in a rather drastic way. I removed the images, it is shocking that you resorted to that.. you know we have swear word filters, so you make a huge image instead? Not what i would call a good role model.

I don't even think you understand the discussion, it's not about who downloads our work, it's about who they think made it. Why should we spend all this time on something, hoping to get appretiation and respect, just to see it given to someone else? Or, as your ok with stealing other peoples work, as long as people can use it? What a great attitude..

Now, i don't want anymore of this dumb discussion here. The thread is for the sole purpose of making sure people are not being miscredited, not for your hyped up views on life. Any further posts for or against the argument will be removed.

Villem · Post by **Villem** » 15 Mar 2005 11:43

ChrisCF, it is our content, we put the hours of work on it, we release it, we bugfix it. By your attitude i have to rethink if i will continiue my work on future projects i have planned for Locomotion, like the Australian Cargosprinter, or many other American Narrow Gauge locos im intrested to do.

Larry · Post by **Larry** » 15 Mar 2005 21:27

ChrisCF wrote:Ithe site (which I still think is lame making even reading the threads members-only)

I don't know what you are doing, but this shouldn't be the case. At least I can browse the whole board without being logged in. What is true is that you have to register before posting or downloading things, but I think this is quite common in the www.

Born Acorn · Post by **Born Acorn** » 15 Mar 2005 21:43

Akalamanaia wrote:ChrisCF, it is our content, we put the hours of work on it, we release it, we bugfix it. By your attitude i have to rethink if i will continiue my work on future projects i have planned for Locomotion, like the Australian Cargosprinter, or many other American Narrow Gauge locos im intrested to do.

Most indeed agreeable.

Akalamanaia, ChrisCF, and others who think its members only, I registered in the forums and still couldn't read the thread.... strange.

Larry · Post by **Larry** » 16 Mar 2005 22:51

aah... now I've seen which thread you mean. It was a useless thread with wrong information in it, so we decided to stop the discussion and hid the thread. (actually, we could have removed it completely)

ChrisCF · Post by **ChrisCF** » 17 Mar 2005 04:18

Wessex_Electric_Nut wrote:Do you have ANY regard or RESPECT for other peoples work? Do you have ANY idea who creates the work? Do you have ANY idea HOW LONG IT TAKES us to produce some quality content? If none of these question are answered, and you haven't bothered to do your research, then I find you pretty damm sad for even commeting.

You think what you do is a thankless job? You're in no position to lecture me about respect for other people's work. In fact, what you've "suffered" from that fansite is a walk in the park compared with what I have to put up with every day. Say what you like, but I can guarantee that you truly have no idea of what a thankless job really is. I, on the other hand, do know what a thankless job is, because I actually have one.

The other thing is that goes against my Interlectual Property Rights, look here to what John_Banks of Trainz fame wrote:

What's more important? Your IP rights or this community? If you answered "the community", havae a cookie. If you answered "my IP rights", then suit yourself and take your work elsewhere. Ultimately, for whatever respect you might "deserve" for making it, your users also "deserve" some respect for choosing your mod, and kicking and screaming at them is not the way to show it.

You seem to have missed a major point that was being made:

Auran has entered into a legal agreement with Discreet that specifically prohibits the conversion of gMax generated meshes into any format other than the game-specific proprietary file format, namely .im or .pm files.

The idea of mods drying up because the community at large is sharing is only a problem when you have greedy authors who insist that they are owed something for their work, which they are offering up to people of their own will (If you know of somewhere you can get paid for voluntary work, don't keep it a secret.) and that in general their "hard work" is thankless. The users of your mods are probably grateful, even if 99% will never bother to email the address in the readme, or come along and contribute to the forums. Again, compare your annoyance at one small credit going astray to that of people complaining that they have to work until they're 65. Put losing your right to be identified as an author next to losing the right to leave your home, or being detained indefinitely without trial (which, as of last Saturday, is now legal in the UK).

It still saddens me that there are people in this world that will put defending their IP rights from their own users before actually putting out quality work. Can we at least see a modicum of professionalism here? Or shall we instead start suing the players for backing up their copy of the mod onto CD without permission, or for downloading it somewhere other than the "official" download page? You can rise above it and be respected, or you can sink below it and entirely kill the Loco modding community just because you don't like the rules. Your choice. No pressure.

It appears to me that you are one of these people, who say "oh, make the content, otherwise for everything else, then **** off!".

(Does that like actually make sense?) No, I'm one of these people that wants to see an active community of user-friendly mod-makers producing quality work, without throwing a hissy fit every time someone does something they don't like. As well as one of those people that tells whiners, of which you are one, to quit whining, which you amongst others were doing.

Sorry mate!! I don't work like that, "If you don't give me the RESPECT I deserve, then you do that!".

(Again, another one which doesn't make sense in this context, never mind ...) Respect is earned, not given. If people like what they see, you'll get respect, but you won't earn respect through demanding that files be taken down, running screaming when you see that files are running loose (Did you by any chance consider sending a polite email asking that they sort it out? I fancy you didn't.), and neither will you get anywhere insisting that you are somehow owed or automatically deserve somethingfor your work. Welcome to the real world, where people routinely are treated like cowpat, and good deeds commonly go unrewarded. Don't think that you're somehow above it all. If you do, you can go crawl back inside your little hole and we'll happily ignore you.

I hope one of these days, you will grow up and understand this.
(Mods, please A) end the discussion ONCE and for ALL, and B) At least consider this individuals behaviour and respect for others, I find him "unfit" for contributing in the forum after that!)

I have grown up, and do understand this. The difference is that I'm living in the real world, and have taken to the realisation that in life you do get treated like crud on the soles of people's shoes, and at times you just have to get on with it, put up and shut up. You're making demands, and I'm just letting things go. I'm in a secure job, and I'm betting you're either still in school, or you're in the dole queue. If I started demanding that my bosses and the taxpayers give me respect for the work I do, I'd very quickly be right behind you in that dole queue.

(Mods, please A) end the discussion ONCE and for ALL, and B) At least consider this individuals behaviour and respect for others, I find him "unfit" for contributing in the forum after that!)

pot-kettle-blaaaaack ... and exactly who put you in charge of deciding who's "fit for contributing" around here?

Villem · Post by **Villem** » 17 Mar 2005 10:23

There is a diffrence working Freelance, and working under a contract, im not working under a contract, i do whatever i want with my content, and i make the rules where to download, and how to download.
That settles it ChrisCF, theres 1 less guy contributing to Locomotion.

d00mh4mm3r · Post by **d00mh4mm3r** » 17 Mar 2005 13:26

Here a little 50/50 for all of you..... the attitudes of people go depending on the person, every1 is different, shore there may be people who dont say thank you, or mention that you have made the mod... some people may find that rude and be dissapointed in a matter of speaking, but the fact is, if someones said i made the NL set, well i would be hoping sum1 would correct them, because if not, then we get people like crisCF complaining about other wanting there mods taken off..

And for people that make the mod's, on what they are wanting to put in, well i say take it as a compliment, even though you think some pictures are a bit on the shonky side, they still think it cool.. so dont just stop in mid project, shore you have the right to go out with friends and party, but when you at home, and got nothing to do, ie. snowed in or sick, then please, keep going...

so Akalamanaia, please keep working on your mods..

In the end this all comes down to peoples e'go, some like to just shrug it off, other perfer to be noticed, and the other 70% of the population would like to be next in line in management, but to be so senical about taking mods off the internet, it becomes point-less in even posting what you are doing. So if you realy do belive that people wont reconise you for your work, then dont say anything about your new mod on the internet, if you are a person who like to bring smiles to people with new stuff, then good on you, your not stubberned... just all of you keep cool and relax, we arnt in a world of full on niceness.

If cave-men stop doing work after people complaining, we wouldnt have the weel, we would just be picking flee's off other's next to a warm farting group (no fire.. no weel = no LoMo)

scrat · Post by **scrat** » 17 Mar 2005 17:43

<voice-of-reason-mode=on>

Chris: I am the one that is supposed to shoot from the hip, mate. I agree on the spirit of what you're saying, but the tone needs some work.

Larry: Thanks a bunch for your quick and courteous replies and actions. The new arrangement is totally satisfactory and will deprive no-one (both this community as well as your community) of the items that I (and assorted partners) have produced. Again, I must say that the initiative to have an easily accessible repository of all mods is a good one.

Akalamanaia: Take a chill pill. Hell, take two.

<voice-of-reason-mode=off>

In the end, you're all users (-- thank your lucky stars that you're not my users --) and as a fully fledged BOFH it is my sworn duty to pour heaps of abuse on you all. Flapjacks.

(By Steve, whilst not strictly necessary, it didn't seem very nice.)

Flapjacks? That makes me sound goofy.

ChrisCF · Post by **ChrisCF** » 18 Mar 2005 00:44

Akalamanaia wrote:There is a diffrence working Freelance, and working under a contract, im not working under a contract, i do whatever i want with my content, and i make the rules where to download, and how to download.

Uh-uh. In fact, as a freelancer, you should be damn grateful that someone on the fansite though your work was so good, all their friends have to have it. Say what you like about it being your content, but in the end, you take thanks on their terms, not yours. Ultimately, it comes across that you're modding for the wrong reasons. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of us here modify various things (TTD, Loco, etc) because we enjoy it, and it poses a challenge; not because we want people to thank us for giving up time for something they haven't asked for in the first place.

That settles it ChrisCF, theres 1 less guy contributing to Locomotion.

Fair enough. That's your decision, and it's nothing to do with me. No blood on my hands.

scrat wrote:Larry: Thanks a bunch for your quick and courteous replies and actions. The new arrangement is totally satisfactory and will deprive no-one (both this community as well as your community) of the items that I (and assorted partners) have produced. Again, I must say that the initiative to have an easily accessible repository of all mods is a good one.

Scrat, my friend, I owe you a drink (non-alcoholic, of course, since now Uncle Steve says I'm setting a "bad example"). You didn't complain. You didn't run screaming. You stayed calm, and acted courteously. As a result, you made good ground with the German fansite. They try and make a similar gesture in return, both sides get something.

I am utterly ashamed that out of everyone in this mess, only one person made a reasonable approach to the fansite. Everyone else threw reason out the window, flew off the handle, and in some cases even started making demands which couldn't be enforced if they weren't complied with. Quite frankly, those individuals deserved nothing more and nothing less than a harsh response.

Scrat, I salute you.

Akalamanaia: Take a chill pill. Hell, take two.

Seconded. Or perhaps we could make counter-demands that Akalamanaia be taken down within 24 hours.

*Edited by Raichase - Other members found your comments to be racist, and I agreed.*

Steve · Post by **Steve** » 18 Mar 2005 10:02

You still miss out my main point for this topic.. it's not the fact that they have our objects on their site, it's the fact they have the wrong name on them! I don't understand how you don't understand that we have a problem with that!

You say only scrat is being sensible, but you'll see my objects are still on their site, because i think they have responded well to us. They have fixed their mistake, so i am happy with it. Just because i don't make a pretty post here doesn't mean everything.

Illegal_Alien · Post by **Illegal_Alien** » 18 Mar 2005 15:01

Maybe you should see this as a call for a different aproach of serving mods/add-ons for games (in this case locomotion)

That the credits dont give the right information is not good.

But can we all learn from this?

- If you place download on your site; Credit it right, Link to the Website of the mod, and maybe a linkt to the TT-forum topic of it
- Way of providing links on TT-forum, is realy bad. So a solution must be found (Already n progress)
- The internet is a free medium; if you place them online they will pop-up everywhere.

ChrisCF · Post by **ChrisCF** » 19 Mar 2005 01:57

Steve wrote:You still miss out my main point for this topic.. it's not the fact that they have our objects on their site, it's the fact they have the wrong name on them! I don't understand how you don't understand that we have a problem with that!

... and I don't understand how ranting about that (even going so far as to demand they're taken down in one case) instead of dropping a polite line pointing out what is in the end an innocent mistake gets us anywhere. Ultimately, you have to accept that the Internet is uncontrollable. No matter how hard you try, you cannot 100% prevent people from passing it on, and you can't guarantee that they'll always know who made it in the first place. Contrary to what some might think, making sure people know you made it is the responsibility of the author, not the distributor.

You say only scrat is being sensible, but you'll see my objects are still on their site, because i think they have responded well to us.

"Responded well?" I'd say they've been pretty damn tolerant in the face of "Take my stuff down now you idiots!".

The mistake may have been fixed, but how the battle was won still appals me.

Villem · Post by **Villem** » 19 Mar 2005 08:46

ChrisCF wrote:
Akalamanaia: Take a chill pill. Hell, take two.
Seconded. Or perhaps we could make counter-demands that Akalamanaia be taken down within 24 hours.
(Translation for humour-impaired Finns: I'm kidding!)

I already warned Krtaylor not to call us Finns, not to also mention you need to resort to sly belittling to boost your argument, as does Scrat. This community does not need retards, who feel need to belittle other members because of their decisions on the stuff, they done themselves. Any Further posts that call me, or other Finnish People around here "Finns", will be interpeted as a insult. Also any other sly remarks. Each, and one of them, will go directly to be reported to Owen whenever he comes online at IRC.

Raichase · Post by **Raichase** » 19 Mar 2005 08:53

Chris, racism will not be tolerated. Don't do it again. I agree with Akalamanaia on this one.

Illegal_Alien · Post by **Illegal_Alien** » 19 Mar 2005 10:22

How about we all take a break?

I dont want that the Locomotion community will be killed by a (stupid) "Thats mine" thing.

I know you worked hard for it. I understand your position. But dont make this "LocoGate Affaire" harm the releases of mods. Otherwise whe all can go back to TTD.

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