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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:48 am 
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This, I think may become a daily occurence...

SWT was in trouble this past weekend after 2 signal failures at Vauxhall and (I believe) Walton-on-Thames leading to widespread disruption on all routes out of Waterloo...
Rumours had it that copper thieves were to blame for removal of copper cables controlling the signalling, resulting in the breakdowns.

Also, the same day, a bit less disruption but LO and Southern services were disrupted due to a track circuit failure between Sydenham and Honor Oak Park, again rumored to be down to the resident copper thief....

Your oppinions please...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:03 pm 
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Indeed - an article explaining it here: http://railnews.co.uk/news/general/2011 ... -rise.html

http://railnews.co.uk/news/general/2011/06/07-copper-price-triggers-steep-rise.html wrote:
THE menace of railway cable thieves has reached new heights, according to figures published by British Transport Police.

Although general levels of crime on the railways have continued to fall, the force says that cable theft has risen by 70 per cent.

The BTP reported that crime on the railways fell by 2.9 per cent in 2010/11, the seventh successive annual decrease.

The figures include a 2.8 per cent fall in violent crime and a 1.6 per cent reduction in robberies.

Cable thefts are soaring, however, because 'economics are having their effect', according to BTP chief constable Andy Trotter. There were 2,712 cable thefts in 2010/11, compared to 1,593 in 2009/10.

Mr Trotter said that in "difficult economic times acquisitive crime is likely to increase, and these figures show that".

He added: "Cable theft is a real challenge for us, the rail industry and other utilities. The record price of metals on world markets has made this type of crime seem increasingly attractive, although the actual returns to the thieves are pretty modest.

“Metal theft causes significant disruption to rail services and that means real consequences for real people - missed business meetings, family celebrations and appointments, for instance. And that’s not to mention the huge financial costs to the rail industry and the dangers to the thieves themselves.

“We have increased the resources we are devoting to this issue and are working closely with Network Rail to find more effective ways of reversing this trend.”

But the incidence of disruption caused by cable thefts is rising. First Great Western has apologised for disruption on its network last week, and named cable theft as one of the reasons. FGW managing director Mark Hopwood said: "A number of unrelated infrastructure failures, a trackside cable theft, vandalism and a suicide resulted in our train service being significantly disrupted."

Network Rail's budgets are also being hit by the problem. Cable theft has cost the company some £43 million over the past three years – it has to pay for the repairs and also compensate train operators for disruption.

Dyan Crowther, who is Network Rail's director of operational services, said: “These criminal acts have to stop. Every day passengers and essential freight deliveries upon which our economy relies are being delayed by thieves looking to make a quick buck at our expense.

“I cannot over-emphasise just how serious these crimes are. Cable thieves deny passengers the service they rightly expect and, through the massive cost to the industry, deny everyone improvements to rail services."


I read a while ago that Network Rail were experimenting with new types of cable that couldn't be sold because it's "watermarked". But then it only takes a dishonest dealer to melt it down, who would be the type who would accept stolen cable anyway.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:38 pm 
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Or you could move a lot of the data needed for the signalling via optic cables instead of copper ones. I believe the dutch railways are doing this on specific high theft risk locations. Then you only have the power cables left.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:40 pm 
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now there are many ways in which these thieves should be TORTURED!!! :twisted: They ruin the trains every flaming time!. We should go to their Houses, and steal their Power Cabling! (turn the power off first) and see how they like it!! :wink:

broodje wrote:
Or you could move a lot of the data needed for the signalling via optic cables instead of copper ones. I believe the dutch railways are doing this on specific high theft risk locations. Then you only have the power cables left.


The Brits wouldn't do that as it would cost too much..... the usual

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:29 pm 
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Jacko wrote:
broodje wrote:
Or you could move a lot of the data needed for the signalling via optic cables instead of copper ones. I believe the dutch railways are doing this on specific high theft risk locations. Then you only have the power cables left.


The Brits wouldn't do that as it would cost too much..... the usual

They do actually. However disruption still happens as the pikeys cut the cables, discover it's fibre optic cable realise it's not worth nicking but too late, job is already stopped.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:43 pm 
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Make the Cables out of Un-Slicable Material, or have some sort of auto sentry robot that fires stun guns at thieves?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:52 pm 
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Or sensible suggestions...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:19 pm 
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Jacko wrote:
Make the Cables out of Un-Slicable Material, or have some sort of auto sentry robot that fires stun guns at thieves?


Not that it would make logistical sense to cover the country in so called auto sentry robots..

Covering cables in such a material might prove worthwhile, for example Kevlar, but probably not really worth the additional expense.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:51 pm 
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jvassie wrote:
Jacko wrote:
Make the Cables out of Un-Slicable Material, or have some sort of auto sentry robot that fires stun guns at thieves?

Not that it would make logistical sense to cover the country in so called auto sentry robots..
Covering cables in such a material might prove worthwhile, for example Kevlar, but probably not really worth the additional expense.

Nah, they'd just nick the Kevlar instead!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:52 pm 
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Hook the copper signalling cables up to the Overhead or 3rd rail lines. Problem (almost) solved.

What exactly are the copper components in signalling wire? Been wondering a bit recently since it seems pretty easy to obtain.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:23 pm 
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Jacko wrote:
Make the Cables out of Un-Slicable Material, or have some sort of auto sentry robot that fires stun guns at thieves?


They already have helicopter to stop this sort of thing, what more do you want?
(Haven't had time to watch it myself - just googled it)

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk ... -1180.aspx


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:26 am 
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Ameecher wrote:
Or sensible suggestions...


i offer ridiculous suggestions that might just work!

Geo Ghost wrote:
Hook the copper signalling cables up to the Overhead or 3rd rail lines. Problem (almost) solved.

What exactly are the copper components in signalling wire? Been wondering a bit recently since it seems pretty easy to obtain.


Is the Overhead idea for shocking the thieves or just putiing it out of reach and the Copper in sugnalling powers the actualy signal a number of times, plus, your overhead idea only works where there is overhead power, in the south its 3rd rail :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:03 am 
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Geo Ghost wrote:
Hook the copper signalling cables up to the Overhead or 3rd rail lines. Problem (almost) solved.

What exactly are the copper components in signalling wire? Been wondering a bit recently since it seems pretty easy to obtain.


Its what the actual wire is made out of - it conducts the signaling instructions, which are made up of electrical pulses. Similar to how telephone cables have traditionally been made out of copper because its a good conductor. One of those technologies that's more than 100 years old but is still perfectly adequate today - most 'broadband' provision uses copper wire in the 'last mile'.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:50 am 
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Or you just run the signalling system at 20000 Volts.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-13678266

The most sensible options would be to switch to fibre for signalling (which long term would probably happen anyway as copper prices keep going up, and fibre prices keep coming down) and switch the power cables to a cheaper alloy (steel/aluminium).

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:58 am 
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Jacko wrote:
Is the Overhead idea for shocking the thieves or just putiing it out of reach and the Copper in sugnalling powers the actualy signal a number of times, plus, your overhead idea only works where there is overhead power, in the south its 3rd rail :)


You've completely missed my dark/cynical humour... :P

Kev - Ah I see now. That makes a lot more sense. How exposed are the cables then if they are that easy to steal? Perhaps one way to cover them completely is by having the buried under the ballast or something.
Or even along the catenary system out of reach.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:35 pm 
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I was thinking that, run the signal cables underneath the track and it's a lot harder to steal... or run it right next to the third rail/catenary where available, but of course we wouldn't be allowed to electrocute the thieves: Health and Safety etc.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:52 pm 
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audigex wrote:
I was thinking that, run the signal cables underneath the track and it's a lot harder to steal... or run it right next to the third rail/catenary where available, but of course we wouldn't be allowed to electrocute the thieves: Health and Safety etc.


Ah but technically its their fault they got electrocuted by breaking the law, so i think it should go on!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:04 pm 
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audigex wrote:
I was thinking that, run the signal cables underneath the track and it's a lot harder to steal... or run it right next to the third rail/catenary where available, but of course we wouldn't be allowed to electrocute the thieves: Health and Safety etc.

Yeah but then it makes it a b**** to maintain.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:08 pm 
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Yeah, that was my more reasoned opposition to it :(

I wondered for a moment whether maybe it would be worth it in theft hotspots, more maintenance but less risk of theft - until I realised that the thefts would just move to other areas.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:54 pm 
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In 2009, a railway control center in the north of Vienna burned down because those b****** stole a lightning rod cable. That event caused 40 minutes delay on each and every train from Vienna to Prague for six months. Funny though, that they managed to get those 40 minutes back in Prague by not stopping at the main station (which is a real waste of time) so those trains were on time in Berlin. :lol:


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