Electric Rails

[.CHaSE.]

You can upgrade to the elrail while the 'old' trains are still running. When you're done upgrading the rail, you can start upgrading the trains. It's as simple as that. That's the way I do it, and it's very fast with the replace tool.

LOL
I didn't realize you can. Okay, given the simple rail and elrails are (somewhat) compatible, and don't create difficulties when upgrading, I guess I actually like the concept.

However, I do believe the graphic for elrails is awful.

nobody is forcing you to upgrade if you don't want to. We set some goals long before you joined this forum and we are following that plan. We code it like we want to and makes it available for everybody for free. If that is not enough for you (or somebody else), then f*** off. It's no fun to spend months on something and then somebody shows up and says "discard it. I don't like the concept". That's not really how it works for stuff you get for free.

Take a chill pill. If you're so sensitive, you shouldn't read this forum. It's called "OpenTTD Problems", you know. Someone might, god forbid, criticize what you've coded.

The attitude of a free software developers (most of them, anyway) towards a negative feedback is such a bore...

[Purno]

However, I do believe the graphic for elrails is awful.

You can try the Dutch Catenary graphics, which are somewhat different. Get them at the website of the Dutch trainset, click on the image in my sig.

[Bjarni]

I agree so if you dont like them find something else. But i do think they should be optional.

since it's work in progress, it's not done yet. Once it's done, it would be best to use it on all network servers, hence no option. It needs some balancing as it is now. Wait and see.

nobody is forcing you to upgrade if you don't want to. We set some goals long before you joined this forum and we are following that plan. We code it like we want to and makes it available for everybody for free. If that is not enough for you (or somebody else), then f*** off. It's no fun to spend months on something and then somebody shows up and says "discard it. I don't like the concept". That's not really how it works for stuff you get for free.

Take a chill pill. If you're so sensitive, you shouldn't read this forum. It's called "OpenTTD Problems", you know. Someone might, god forbid, criticize what you've coded.

The attitude of a free software developers (most of them, anyway) towards a negative feedback is such a bore...

I'm not sensitive. It's just that it appears that some people want to be against what we stated long ago as our goals. Most often the people, who yell loudest are the ones, who never code anything.

This reply was not only aimed at you, but to everybody, who don't want elrails. It's a really massive change to the core of the game and it's not easy to change again. It changed stuff in almost all the source files, so it's not trivial to make optional and we actually don't want it to be optional either. You have no idea how many hours it would take to make it optional.

[mart3p]

I like elrails and would like to thank Celestar for all the work he has done coding them.

I find they add a new dimension to the game. At first, I wasn’t sure about the catenary graphics but I soon got use to them.

Another solution for those that don’t like the catenary graphics would be to have 3rd rail graphics for electrified track. I seem to remember seeing some graphics for 3rd rail tracks in the TTDPatch graphics forum but I can’t find them now. Does anyone know if these where coded?

[Bjarni]

Another solution for those that don’t like the catenary graphics would be to have 3rd rail graphics for electrified track. I seem to remember seeing some graphics for 3rd rail tracks in the TTDPatch graphics forum but I can’t find them now. Does anyone know if these where coded?

it's not like it's hard to replace the catenary sprites and we talked a bit about this. Right now it got some sprites, but it's not tricky to change them to something else. It's kind of tricky to draw good ones through, and that kind of stopped us from making a selection to choose from.

I find it odd to have a 3rd rail and then pantographs on the trains, specially when they produce sparks on the roof. I will not stop anybody from using graphics like that, specially because they are just that: graphics.
3rd rail is a different kind of catenary, that includes a lot of problems and is mainly used if there are a lot of low tunnels or a lot of low bridges. You can't walk on the track while they are powered, which makes it very poor for freight operation. In fact I would not recommend it for anything but EMUs. Maybe we will some day have both catenary and 3rd rail in the game, with different costs (specially for tunnels) and different trains.

[sidew]

my suggestion: use a different color for the rail ballast, instead of brown rust, use light gray.

[Bjarni]

my suggestion: use a different color for the rail ballast, instead of brown rust, use light gray.

we also talked about something like that. Another idea (aimed at spotting tiles, that you think is converted, but isn't) is to press a hotkey that will draw all of the tracks red/blue/yellow/whatever so a single unconvered tile will really stick out. It should not be used when playing normally, but just while converting to make it easier. Kind of like transparent buildings.

[sidew]

You can try the Dutch Catenary graphics

Same for me. I didn't liked very much the standard catenary, so I put in my ottd copy the ducht catenary grf. But the visibility's issue of e-rails over normal rails isn't yet full resolved. For that I propose to use a different color for rail ballast, for this purpose.

MAny hi-speed railways are more grayer than normal and older railways, because these use concrete sleepers.

[sidew]

[Another idea (aimed at spotting tiles, that you think is converted, but isn't) is to press a hotkey that will draw all of the tracks red/blue/yellow/whatever so a single unconvered tile will really stick out. It should not be used when playing normally, but just while converting to make it easier. Kind of like transparent buildings.

I like this idea too.

[Haukinger]

I've made a elrailsw-mod that moves the power lines down between the rails (remember the old 12v-lego-trains?) and makes them equally bright, so they are clearly visible and don't hide anything. They are still painted over the trains, so it looks a bit ugly
You can get it at my site...

[sc79]

I'm not sensitive. It's just that it appears that some people want to be against what we stated long ago as our goals. Most often the people, who yell loudest are the ones, who never code anything.

This reply was not only aimed at you, but to everybody, who don't want elrails. It's a really massive change to the core of the game and it's not easy to change again. It changed stuff in almost all the source files, so it's not trivial to make optional and we actually don't want it to be optional either. You have no idea how many hours it would take to make it optional.

You do want feedback about the game, dont you? Its part of human nature, and even moreso with internet/message boards it seems, that people are generally loudest when they disagree, and quiet when things are good. Im just as guilty of this as most others, but I hope you can see how much people appreciate the work by the number that play/post.

You're right, I dont code. I use to, but now I cant stand doing it. Sorry if thats not good enough for you. I try and contribute on the boards, but it can sometimes be hard to a) get a point across when so many people have different ideas and b) hard to get a response (even if its only yes/no/if someone will step up and code..).

Even this thread got basically no notice, and sat for 10 days after the initial 2 replies (at which point I let it lie despite my dislike for it), only to suddenly come to life.

Im not against this being added as such, but I do think that it could be greatly improved, and for that to happen someone has to complain. Complements wont work

[LuNd]

Onestly i like the idea, but its far from perfect yet, but i think the programmers will solve that soon enough.

About the things im concerned with:

1. The Graphics

Many others have already said whats wrong with these

2. Realistic Implementation

If the rails were added to be realistic, where do they get their power? I think powerlines and an active powerplant connected to these lines is needed to show the realism intended with their invention.

[Archonix]

I really can't understand the complaints about the elrails. As far as I can see they're nearly identical to the rais in patch and I don't recall people complaining about them...

[Bjarni]

I really can't understand the complaints about the elrails. As far as I can see they're nearly identical to the rais in patch and I don't recall people complaining about them...

I wondered about that too. When the patch added them, people went "wow, that's awesome", but now when we add it to OpenTTD (even without removing monorail/maglev, which was the downsite in the patch), then people starts to complain about it.

As for the graphics, then Celestar coded the sourcecode and then he needed to display them, so he started using some from an grf file, so we didn't actually make the graphics. We can change them, but not until somebody makes/finds something else. I noticed the Dutch catenary. They look nice, but in my eyes, they look like "low" voltage catenary, like 1500 V. Maybe the solution is a 3rd one. Only time will tell how the catenary will look in the stable releases.

[bobingabout]

remember the old 12v-lego-trains?

I've still got 2 whole sets of that, plus a proper lego 12V railway mains transformer, and a set of points

I wondered about that too. When the patch added them, people went "wow, that's awesome", but now when we add it to OpenTTD , then people starts to complain about it.

maybe because its kinda old, plus you FORCE it on people, where in TTDP you can disable it by removing the NewGRF.

i know you all hate me for this, but TTDP is far better than OTTD for its costomisability(I've said it many times, i always say it when somethng like this comes up, and i will continue to say this untill you make OTTD as costomisable as TTDP), which is what makes OTTD crap, but the reason i play OTTD over TTDP despite OTTDs rigidness, its for bigmaps and network/internet play.

(no, i am not saying 1 is better than the other, nor am i trying to start a TTDP/OTTD war again, i'm just pointing out some good and bad points that most people know, but some are afraid to say because of this "which is better?" tension.)

[hertogjan]

(...) I noticed the Dutch catenary. They look nice, but in my eyes, they look like "low" voltage catenary, like 1500 V. (...)

There is a good explanation for that: Dutch trains actually use 1500 V.

[Haukinger]

I've still got 2 whole sets of that, plus a proper lego 12V railway mains transformer, and a set of points

Those electric points were great Too bad I never got that electric remote-decoupler...

Back to topic - I think the problem dissolves and everybody will like elrails if the conversion is made easier. Changing engines from steam to electric to monorail to maglev automatically without removing orders.
That's one reason I like the ukr-set, you can keep the freight lines with diesel engines and most passengers with electric. No real need for maglev as with normal train-set.

[Bjarni]

I've still got 2 whole sets of that, plus a proper lego 12V railway mains transformer, and a set of points

Those electric points were great Too bad I never got that electric remote-decoupler...

it was nice, but it was so unreliable that it killed the fun
Maybe it was my transformer, that f*** up. It ended up dying likely due to extensive use.

As for Elrails in OpenTTD, I still think the current implementation is good, but still not good enough for stable releases. It will need to be able to add catenary even if there is a diesel/steam train driving on the tile in question. We might also get new graphics.

[Bjarni]

(...) I noticed the Dutch catenary. They look nice, but in my eyes, they look like "low" voltage catenary, like 1500 V. (...)

There is a good explanation for that: Dutch trains actually use 1500 V.

I guess that mean that the sprites are drawn pretty good considering I noticed that based on those sprites alone.
I still think we should use high voltage catenary, like 15 kV or 25 kV. Noteworthy trains like ICE and Dm3 uses 15 kV. 1500 and 750 V are actually outdated DC voltages, that is used only for historical reasons (like now that they have been there for 50+ years, it's too expensive to replace) or security reasons for 3rd rail "catenary" railroads.

[Brianetta]

1500 and 750 V are actually outdated DC voltages, that is used only for historical reasons (like now that they have been there for 50+ years, it's too expensive to replace) or security reasons for 3rd rail "catenary" railroads.

It's also standard on the Tyne and Wear Metro, built in the eighties, which now runs in part across a newly electrified stretch of BR mainline:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_el ... ct_current

Of course, being the only UK rail system using this voltage, no other electrified services can run on that part of the mainline.

So, neither historical, 3rd rail nor for security - just plain old different. It's actually more efficient for a network that is barely 20 miles across.