Concept Phase Oct09-May12

Daan Timmer · **Posted:** Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:06 pm

which is?

smallfly · **Posted:** Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:09 pm

Daan Timmer wrote:

which is?

good question, since its the wrong name. i mean the waterfall model with the difference that the development process is not only flowing downwards but also upwards. but lets stop talking about the terminology of development models. lets stay concrete: i write a detailed plan first. then i go on with the coding. name it however you like.

edit: the project is very complex and dynamic. nobody (not even me) knows how the result will look like. thus nobody knows if its worth at all to discuss the project. i hope that the new all-embracing concept will bring us to a common level of knowledge about the currently very vague defined project.

Daan Timmer · **Posted:** Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:28 pm

Didn't mean to sound harsh/rude or offensive there ;-)

Was just interested in what you had in mind :-)

I just wish you the best of luck with your project :-)

JGR · **Posted:** Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:18 pm

Software development models are fairly irrelevant when you only have one developer.

Going via a 300 page document seems a bit unnecessarily laborious to me.
You'll just end up amending large chunks of it as soon as you start coding anything of significance.

Expresso · **Posted:** Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:10 pm

Smallfly, the website has nothing to do with the program itself. The program itself should have its own document to describe it. Forget about dreaming up names for your variables and classes upfront, that's just a waste of time. Rather figure out the rules of the game. Figure out the relation between pieces of information (like you do when designing websites) and put that in the document. Algorhytms of interest should also be noted (along with speculation on why to use them). No actual code, nor identifier names in the design document; That's just a pointless waste of time.

For your information: seeing how you are approaching this, I still believe you will be sorely disappointed. A sim everything is harder then you think. Otherwise, good luck.

smallfly · **Posted:** Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:19 pm

Expresso wrote:

Rather figure out the rules of the game.

I actually didnt want to upload the current status of the document, because there are still many spelling mistakes (I work on the documents for 3 days now, everyday 10 hours). But since you are critizing an outdated document that doesnt exist anymore, please have a look on the new attached one.

//edit: concept extended; now 61 pages

Attachment:

20120405_P1SIM Documentation (EN).pdf

(For everyone except Expresso: You should wait before opening the pdf. I will improve it dramatically in the next days and upload a new version.)

WWW · **Joined:** Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:37 pm **Posts:** 912

smallfly wrote:

edit: the project is very complex and dynamic. nobody (not even me) knows how the result will look like. thus nobody knows if its worth at all to discuss the project. i hope that the new all-embracing concept will bring us to a common level of knowledge about the currently very vague defined project.

Just to join in on ragging on you, the way games change over time based on how they're written and the ideas that come to you as you write a game and observe emergent behavior are what give technical games depth.

smallfly · **Posted:** Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:21 am

This picture is showing how the intralogistics of all factories will work.

Attachment:

intralogistics_k.png [ 477.55 KiB | Viewed 316 times ]

Note: The pallets are not moving. They are "beamed" to the next station. The "beamtime" is influenced by the quotient: logistics cubes divided by all factory cubes. higher value => longer average transport time > longer "beamtime".

smallfly · **Posted:** Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:25 am

This picture shows how to define the turning options at junctions:

Attachment:

turning_options_k.png [ 142.41 KiB | Viewed 315 times ]

lawton27 · **Posted:** Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:46 am

Pictures are all well and good but how do you intend to program that, have you any idea of the basic class structure or functions & algorithms??

smallfly · **Posted:** Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:57 am

lawton27 wrote:

Pictures are all well and good but how do you intend to program that, have you any idea of the basic class structure or functions & algorithms??

While creating the concept (and drawing the pictures) I always have the coding in mind and I am well aware that the coding will be challenging. (It doesn't make sense to create a class structure before having completed the concept. All the more functions (methods) and algorithms.)

lawton27 · **Posted:** Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:59 am

smallfly wrote:

lawton27 wrote:

Pictures are all well and good but how do you intend to program that, have you any idea of the basic class structure or functions & algorithms??

While creating the concept (and drawing the pictures) I always have the coding in mind and I am well aware that the coding will be challenging. (It doesn't make sense to create a class structure before having completed the concept. All the more functions (methods) and algorithms.)

Not to criticise but you have been working on the concept for a while now.....

smallfly · **Posted:** Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:03 am

lawton27 wrote:

Not to criticise but you have been working on the concept for a while now.....

And now I should skip the concept writing because I'm late? And jump directly into the class definition without even knowing which objects I have to representent in the form of classes?

lawton27 · **Posted:** Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:05 am

smallfly wrote:

lawton27 wrote:

Not to criticise but you have been working on the concept for a while now.....

And now I should skip the concept writing because I'm late? And jump directly into the class definition without even knowing which objects I have to representent in the form of classes?

I'm not saying that I'm merely pointing out it shouldn't really take 2 years to lay down a concept for any game... Perhaps you're trying to encompass too much? Or is the whole concept just procrastination as Chrill pointed out earlier?

kotssmurf · **Joined:** Tue May 27, 2008 8:33 pm **Posts:** 142

Since nobody seems to be supporting you I will :-)

Very couragous of you to develop something of this size, by yourself.
I envie your passion and preseverance!

Setting a long time goal like that, and maintaining a continuous effort to persue a (unrealistic? I don't have the knowledge to claim it) dream is something a lot of people would not be able to.

smallfly · **Posted:** Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:32 am

lawton27 wrote:

it shouldn't really take 2 years to lay down a concept for any game...

Depends on the professional situation of the concept writer.

lawton27 wrote:

Perhaps you're trying to encompass too much?

Yes. Thats correct. I TRY to encompass too much. But I recognize those "too-much-features" and take them out of the concept again.

lawton27 wrote:

Or is the whole concept just procrastination as Chrill pointed out earlier?

I do not understand the meaning of "concept = procrastination". What do you want to say? That will never be a game, only concept writing and procrastinating the coding forever? What I can tell you: I really would like to start with the coding again. I love it to see results, do the first clicks on the map, move the first vehicles. But I would hate it even more, if the development stops because of unmanageable complexity. P1SIM is a very complex game which wants to be very easy to play at the same time. To achieve these ambitious targets there has to be a detailed concept, answering every single question, forming the base of all coding, helping to stick to the agreed features. Extreme programming will not realize this game.

kotssmurf wrote:

Since nobody seems to be supporting you I will :-)

Very couragous of you to develop something of this size, by yourself.
I envie your passion and preseverance!

Thank you

But there are more people supporting the project than you think. Those who question the concept also help by critizing it.

lawton27 · **Posted:** Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:37 am

smallfly wrote:

lawton27 wrote:

Or is the whole concept just procrastination as Chrill pointed out earlier?

I do not understand the meaning of "concept = procrastination". What do you want to say? That will never be a game, only concept writing and procrastinating the coding forever? What I can tell you: I really would like to start with the coding again. I love it to see results, do the first clicks on the map, move the first vehicles. But I would hate it even more, if the development stops because of unmanageable complexity. P1SIM is a very complex game which wants to be very easy to play at the same time. To achieve these ambitious targets there has to be a detailed concept, answering every single question, forming the base of all coding, helping to stick to the agreed features. Extreme programming will not realize this game.

Well I imply that the excess work on the concept you have been doing is really to avoid having to start programming, it appears you already have a good grasp of what you want from the game yet you keep on throwing out pretty pictures which look strangely similar to ones you've posted before :wink:

But I must concede you make some good points, I may not understand why you choose to take this step so slow but it's your project not mine

.

smallfly · **Posted:** Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:51 am

lawton27 wrote:

I may not understand why you choose to take this step so slow

I have MUCH other stuff to do, namely:
- till end of january i worked full time for lamborghini
- februar to april i have to write many exams and work for the chair of supply chain management at my university
- april to june i have to do a student research project (factory optimization)
- june to sep i have to write my diploma thesis about a business software tool
- more exames from aug to sep
- 3-weeks consulting project in italy in july
- october i start my promotion
- besides all that im founding a software company mid of the year

Expresso · **Posted:** Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:47 pm

Although, I cheer you for wanting to design something like this, you should be aware that it is not a board game you are designing. You appear to be forgetting that.

One question, though: what are you studying and in which general direction is that?

smallfly · **Posted:** Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:56 pm

Expresso wrote:

Although, I cheer you for wanting to design something like this, you should be aware that it is not a board game you are designing. You appear to be forgetting that.

I already designed a board game. The publisher's playtesters are currently checking it. I am developing it since 2006. The publisher has requested it (after improvements) now for the third time. So, I do know the difference between board games and computer games

Expresso wrote:

One question, though: what are you studying and in which general direction is that?

In Germany its called "Wirtschaftsingenieurwesen", which is a combination of engineering and economics. I specialized on logistics, controlling and information technology.

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