National Rail Shakeup

GurraJG · **Posted:** Wed May 02, 2012 2:16 pm

Alan Fry wrote:

Also it is shown all over the world that if you invest into the railways, more people will use it (if it is better and/or cheaper etc)

Yet no where in the world has the railways reduced car usage to the minimal levels that you imagine.

welshdragon · **Posted:** Wed May 02, 2012 2:25 pm

Alan, In all seriousness, your views scream of that of someone who is fed up to the back teeth with government. We all are, But bringing arguments or discussions to the table with no proof, no research and saying the same thing over and over and over and over just makes you seem stupid.

Go away, do some research (like I have to do), and then come back to us with your findings. If you come back with sweet FA we'll just carry on.

I can tell you now that for the level of investment needed in our Railways, everyone would have to pay thousands of pounds in taxes - which they won't as it's a recession, and people would probably still drive as it's more convenient and it's faster. I know, I can't drive, but I would if I could.

Hitperson · **Joined:** Mon May 09, 2005 7:25 am **Posts:** 348

Alan Fry wrote:

Road charging will be set a point were it is cheaper to go by rail (where road competes with rail)

Also it is shown all over the world that if you invest into the railways, more people will use it (if it is better and/or cheaper etc)

where??

all road charging will do is see you either have a single bout in office or so many calls for you to resign you would be buried under the sheer number.

Kevo00 · **Posted:** Wed May 02, 2012 3:35 pm

Alan Fry wrote:

Dave W wrote:

Two Minutes ago, I wrote:

No. That's NOT a proof, that's you re-explaining your hypothesis.

We want to know WHY it will work. HOW it will work, and how EXISTING figures show that there is a market for doing it that way.

Let me put it this way, I first need to have at all the railways in Great Britain, then I need to look at financial information relating to the railways. This is to see what state the railway is in, then I will then work out how much money is needed and reflect it in the various sources of income

Have you even vaguely attempted to do this? No. You haven't even put a figure on the improvements you plan to make.

Alan Fry wrote:

JamieLei wrote:

No. If you want to prove it, then please quantitatively model it. I want to see how adding road charging to your model will cause a large scale modal shift onto the railways. Alternatively, you can present some case studies where road charging and large scale investment have been conducted already.

Assuming your hypotheses is a fallacy. I want to see how your hypothesis can present a statistically different outcome to the null hypothesis.

Road charging will be set a point were it is cheaper to go by rail (where road competes with rail)

Also it is shown all over the world that if you invest into the railways, more people will use it (if it is better and/or cheaper etc)

Citation? Has anyone used road pricing to do this before? It would have to be very punitive to force modal shift, and would constitute an unfair tax on those unable to use rail.

I want to see statistically significant evidence too.

Dave W · **Posted:** Wed May 02, 2012 4:34 pm

Alan Fry wrote:

Let me put it this way, I first need to have at all the railways in Great Britain, then I need to look at financial information relating to the railways.

FOI request?

Hitperson · **Joined:** Mon May 09, 2005 7:25 am **Posts:** 348

Dave W wrote:

Alan Fry wrote:

Let me put it this way, I first need to have at all the railways in Great Britain, then I need to look at financial information relating to the railways.

FOI request?

i think a request to be sectioned would be a better idea.

Geo Ghost · **Posted:** Wed May 02, 2012 7:00 pm

Alan Fry wrote:

Road charging will be set a point were it is cheaper to go by rail (where road competes with rail)

Right, so you try to entice people to go by rail by making it cheaper and making the roads worse? Wow.... just, wow.

Alan Fry wrote:

Also it is shown all over the world that if you invest into the railways, more people will use it (if it is better and/or cheaper etc)

Source please.
Plus where is your proof of all these statistics and such you say about? We're still waiting. or can you not provide them because they are just made up?

What experience have you even had in these fields?
Actually you know what, don't answer that. I think I'm more likely to believe there's a black-hole in our bath over what ever you say now.

Hitperson · **Joined:** Mon May 09, 2005 7:25 am **Posts:** 348

Geo Ghost wrote:

Alan Fry wrote:

Also it is shown all over the world that if you invest into the railways, more people will use it (if it is better and/or cheaper etc)

Source please.
Plus where is your proof of all these statistics and such you say about? We're still waiting. or can you not provide them because they are just made up?

What experience have you even had in these fields?
Actually you know what, don't answer that. I think I'm more likely to believe there's a black-hole in our bath over what ever you say now.

i too was wondering about that, if rail travel is so great then why do people go and buy cars...

JamieLei · **Posted:** Wed May 02, 2012 11:06 pm

Alan Fry wrote:

Road charging will be set a point were it is cheaper to go by rail (where road competes with rail)

Also it is shown all over the world that if you invest into the railways, more people will use it (if it is better and/or cheaper etc)

Road charging set at what point?

Give me a case study of a case where investing in the railways substantially while implementing road charging has caused a HUGE modal shift to rail. Alternatively, show us the models, of which the MOST BASIC model should at least consider calculating the price elasticity of both car and rail travel, as well as the destinations of where people want to go. And don't say it's impossible, because the TOCs and people who are ACTUALLY involved in constructing such policy do.

You haven't shown me a single gram of proof yet.

Alan Fry · **Joined:** Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:11 pm **Posts:** 971

welshdragon wrote:

Alan, In all seriousness, your views scream of that of someone who is fed up to the back teeth with government. We all are, But bringing arguments or discussions to the table with no proof, no research and saying the same thing over and over and over and over just makes you seem stupid.

Go away, do some research (like I have to do), and then come back to us with your findings. If you come back with sweet FA we'll just carry on.

I can tell you now that for the level of investment needed in our Railways, everyone would have to pay thousands of pounds in taxes - which they won't as it's a recession, and people would probably still drive as it's more convenient and it's faster. I know, I can't drive, but I would if I could.

I have done some research, but I need to see the state of the railways for myself (merly traveling on it is only part of it)

Most of the investment will come from proceeds from tax evasion and avoidance (past and present) alogn with road charging

But you are right, the level of investment needed is quite a lot

Hitperson wrote:

where??

all road charging will do is see you either have a single bout in office or so many calls for you to resign you would be buried under the sheer number.

Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Europe, even America

Anyway, I will plan to scrap Fuel and Road Tax in return

Kevo00 wrote:

Citation? Has anyone used road pricing to do this before? It would have to be very punitive to force modal shift, and would constitute an unfair tax on those unable to use rail.

I want to see statistically significant evidence too.

I am using Road Pricing to invest into transport, that has happened of a number of places

Dave W wrote:

FOI request?

You need to see whats on the ground as well

Geo Ghost wrote:

Right, so you try to entice people to go by rail by making it cheaper and making the roads worse? Wow.... just, wow.

Source please.
Plus where is your proof of all these statistics and such you say about? We're still waiting. or can you not provide them because they are just made up?

What experience have you even had in these fields?
Actually you know what, don't answer that. I think I'm more likely to believe there's a black-hole in our bath over what ever you say now.

Look in Japan, Europe, Korea, Taiwan, and even America

Also its clear that people care about value for money, so they would pick the better cheaper service

JamieLei wrote:

Road charging set at what point?

Give me a case study of a case where investing in the railways substantially while implementing road charging has caused a HUGE modal shift to rail. Alternatively, show us the models, of which the MOST BASIC model should at least consider calculating the price elasticity of both car and rail travel, as well as the destinations of where people want to go. And don't say it's impossible, because the TOCs and people who are ACTUALLY involved in constructing such policy do.

You haven't shown me a single gram of proof yet.

Road Charging set at a point that is makes driving (when competing with rail) more expensive than rail

As for investing into the railways, look at Japan, Europe and even America

There are also a number of examples of road charging and major investment into transport (London for example)

Hitperson · **Joined:** Mon May 09, 2005 7:25 am **Posts:** 348

Alan Fry wrote:

Anyway, I will plan to scrap Fuel and Road Tax in return

so wait, no road tax then??

so how are you going to play for this, just print more money and put the UK into a similar state to 1930's germany where the currency was so valueless that children used to play using bundles of money as building blocks.

Alan Fry · **Joined:** Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:11 pm **Posts:** 971

Hitperson wrote:

so wait, no road tax then??

so how are you going to play for this, just print more money and put the UK into a similar state to 1930's germany where the currency was so valueless that children used to play using bundles of money as building blocks.

I am planning to replace road and fuel taxes with road charging

Dave W · **Posted:** Thu May 03, 2012 9:24 am

Hitperson wrote:

so how are you going to play for this, just print more money and put the UK into a similar state to 1930's germany where the currency was so valueless that children used to play using bundles of money as building blocks.

Someone's in the middle of their History GCSE, clearly! Haha.

Alan Fry · **Joined:** Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:11 pm **Posts:** 971

Dave W wrote:

Hitperson wrote:

so how are you going to play for this, just print more money and put the UK into a similar state to 1930's germany where the currency was so valueless that children used to play using bundles of money as building blocks.

Someone's in the middle of their History GCSE, clearly! Haha.

Yet again you are wrong

Dave W · **Posted:** Thu May 03, 2012 9:28 am

Alan Fry wrote:

Dave W wrote:

Hitperson wrote:

so how are you going to play for this, just print more money and put the UK into a similar state to 1930's germany where the currency was so valueless that children used to play using bundles of money as building blocks.

Someone's in the middle of their History GCSE, clearly! Haha.

Yet again you are wrong

Don't think I was talking to you Alan, hence why I quoted hitperson.

Alan Fry · **Joined:** Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:11 pm **Posts:** 971

Dave W wrote:

Don't think I was talking to you Alan, hence why I quoted hitperson.

Sorry about that Dave W!

GurraJG · **Posted:** Thu May 03, 2012 9:56 am

Alan Fry wrote:

As for investing into the railways, look at Japan, Europe and even America

People still drive their cars more than they use the train in those places, you know... especially America! How on earth is America a good model for passenger train travel?

Alan Fry · **Joined:** Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:11 pm **Posts:** 971

GurraJG wrote:

People still drive their cars more than they use the train in those places, you know... especially America! How on earth is America a good model for passenger train travel?

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela_Express

Kevo00 · **Posted:** Thu May 03, 2012 10:53 am

Alan Fry wrote:

Geo Ghost wrote:

Right, so you try to entice people to go by rail by making it cheaper and making the roads worse? Wow.... just, wow.

Source please.
Plus where is your proof of all these statistics and such you say about? We're still waiting. or can you not provide them because they are just made up?

What experience have you even had in these fields?
Actually you know what, don't answer that. I think I'm more likely to believe there's a black-hole in our bath over what ever you say now.

Look in Japan, Europe, Korea, Taiwan, and even America

Also its clear that people care about value for money, so they would pick the better cheaper service

JamieLei wrote:

Road charging set at what point?

Give me a case study of a case where investing in the railways substantially while implementing road charging has caused a HUGE modal shift to rail. Alternatively, show us the models, of which the MOST BASIC model should at least consider calculating the price elasticity of both car and rail travel, as well as the destinations of where people want to go. And don't say it's impossible, because the TOCs and people who are ACTUALLY involved in constructing such policy do.

You haven't shown me a single gram of proof yet.

Road Charging set at a point that is makes driving (when competing with rail) more expensive than rail

As for investing into the railways, look at Japan, Europe and even America

There are also a number of examples of road charging and major investment into transport (London for example)

Erm, evidence? You live in Hampstead so will be aware that the A1, A41 and A5 routes into London are still rather slow and crowded despite a good bus and tube service.

As for Japan, earlier in this thread you told us that Japan was not a good example because the service was so poor outside of Tokyo.

In the USA and France where turnpikes/payages exist traffic that doesn't want to pay just goes to the US Highway alternative or to the nearest N road. I don't think motorway tolling is a good comparator to whole system road charging.

Anyway, you offer only anecdotes, not good quality evidence.

EDIT:

Alan Fry wrote:

GurraJG wrote:

People still drive their cars more than they use the train in those places, you know... especially America! How on earth is America a good model for passenger train travel?

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela_Express

There is nothing specific on there about reduced car use - its mostly taking traffic away from airlines...

Alan Fry · **Joined:** Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:11 pm **Posts:** 971

Kevo00 wrote:

Erm, evidence? You live in Hampstead so will be aware that the A1, A41 and A5 routes into London are still rather slow and crowded despite a good bus and tube service.

As for Japan, earlier in this thread you told us that Japan was not a good example because the service was so poor outside of Tokyo.

In the USA and France where turnpikes/payages exist traffic that doesn't want to pay just goes to the US Highway alternative or to the nearest N road. I don't think motorway tolling is a good comparator to whole system road charging.

Anyway, you offer only anecdotes, not good quality evidence.

EDIT:

Alan Fry wrote:

GurraJG wrote:

People still drive their cars more than they use the train in those places, you know... especially America! How on earth is America a good model for passenger train travel?

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela_Express

There is nothing specific on there about reduced car use - its mostly taking traffic away from airlines...

I am not suggesting people should give up their cars, only for a better rail service

Japan + Taiwan invested into it's Intercity servcies and it reduced airline and car traffic (prevented in Japans case)

Yuo cannot deny that less people used other forms of transport on the East Coast

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