Scotrail No Ticket

[JamieLei]

Interesting. A lad refusing to pay is thrown off by a member of the public.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... train.html

The thing is that I'd imagine that there's more to this. The lad had a one-way ticket valid for the opposite direction and was obviously travelling the "unpaid" return leg of that. As we all know, singles are usually 10p less than the cost of the return so lad might have bought the wrong ticket by mistake and object to being forced to pay.

Of course there's much that we don't know. The conductor might have offered to excess him up to the cost of the return and he might have refused. We do know that he swore and abused the member of staff, and that alone should be grounds for being thrown off anyway.

I've only ever seen someone chucked off once before. The poor guy was French and had bought an advance ticket on Chiltern, not fully understanding out ticket system and had got on a train 2 hours before his booked train. The guard was very nice and told him to simply get off at the next stop and wait for the next train (even told him what time it would get into Solihull). When he stayed on, he was chucked off at Dorridge, led by the conductor putting his bags on the platform.

[audigex]

I find it very much depends on the conductor, some are jobs worth knobs, while others accept that people make mistakes, the system is complicated etc and don't really care unless the train is literally having to turn people away.

If you've got a single for the other leg, you should be able to upgrade with no questions asked to a return for the difference in price - people don't always know their situation before getting on the outward train.

[Nawdic]

Ha! Serves him right... that will never happen down south, nor on a bendybus for that matter!

[Geo Ghost]

I thought it was fantastic. You can tell that the young lad is obviously in the wrong by the other passengers looking at him and telling him to get off. My guess would be that the conductor asked him to pay the excess fare and he's refused.

Wish something like that happened on my journeys. Would make travel a lot more interesting for a start.

[61653]

If you make a mistake with your ticket, the best policy is to approach the conductor and explain the situation before you board the train (admittedly this is easier on a 2-car 144 than a 12-car 377) and explain the situation. That way, you know exactly what you'll need to pay before you get on board, and most conductors will be less harsh with any excess fare, because you haven't attempted to avoid paying.

[John]

Well quite - if it was a genuine mistake you are much better off going to the ticket office and explaining your case there.

But then you tend not to try and prove you paid by eventually producing a one way ticket after being told to get off the train.


I'm not surprised a complaint hasn't been made - the "bigman" probably got himself quite a good legal standing by asking the conductor if he should remove the passenger, and got a yes in response. And therefor, now acting on behalf of the train company, used reasonable force to remove someone from the train.

[Griff]

So he is claiming he's the victim...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... train.html

You decide.

The excuses in the article for not having a ticket/right ticket are diabolical at the very least.

He said last night: 'I had been out celebrating after an exam and I was half asleep on the train.

‘I did have a ticket but I must have handed over the wrong one to the conductor. The next thing I know this big guy is manhandling me to the door and throwing me off.'

...And yet the video tells a completely different story. Ummm.

[orudge]

Even if the story about the ticket mix-up was true, there's no reason to be abusive towards the ticket inspector. While perhaps a little extreme, I'd say the guy got what he deserved.

Anyway, as far as I can tell, Edinburgh Park to Polmont is a 15 minute journey that costs £5.10 for an Anytime Single. Now, this guy may have made a genuine mistake, but is it really worth arguing over £5 in that circumstance? If explaining the issue politely didn't work, I'd personally just pay up and then attempt to contact ScotRail customer service later to see if they could refund the extra ticket, or similar. According to that article, the boy did have money of some sort in his bag.

[John]

Even if the story about the ticket mix-up was true, there's no reason to be abusive towards the ticket inspector. While perhaps a little extreme, I'd say the guy got what he deserved.

It is very hard to remove someone from somewhere with them resisting and be "nice" about it. The fact the guy got a hard landing was because by the time he got to the door he was putting up a fight. Had he remained largely compliant, then he would have ended up standing on the platform.

Unfortunately we are also missing a big chunk of video. I don't know many conductors that start the ticket round with "get off the train now".
You tend to ask for a ticket, then offer the chance to buy one etc. etc.

[GurraJG]

Even if the story about the ticket mix-up was true, there's no reason to be abusive towards the ticket inspector. While perhaps a little extreme, I'd say the guy got what he deserved.

It is very hard to remove someone from somewhere with them resisting and be "nice" about it. The fact the guy got a hard landing was because by the time he got to the door he was putting up a fight. Had he remained largely compliant, then he would have ended up standing on the platform.

Unfortunately we are also missing a big chunk of video. I don't know many conductors that start the ticket round with "get off the train now".
You tend to ask for a ticket, then offer the chance to buy one etc. etc.

Exactly. The many times that I've been caught without a ticket (for various reasons; I'm not actually intentionally travelling without a ticket trying to avoid a conductor, I should say), the conducts have always been very polite, and always offered me the chance to buy the correct ticket. If you treat them with respect and stay calm, then it should not be a problem. If you have a problem, the way to deal with it is NOT to start swearing at the conductor.

[bremerjoe]

Gotta love the local Metronom guys here in northern Germany. They do have ticket machines at the stations but you can also board the train and pay the conductor directly once he comes to your seat. Often I have printed my ticket at home already (purchased online from Deutsche Bahn who they cooperate with) but sometimes I do not get to it or do only need oneway ticket instead of day pass and then it is just awesome to board the train and pay cash or EC card whenever the conductor gets to you.
As I like their customer friendly policy I ALWAYS make sure to pay without cheating. Unfortunately some people try to cheat by claiming they just boarded at last station while they have been on board for half an hour already but usually a kind reminder ("Really? I could have sworn you entered Hamburg Hauptbahnhof already...") pushes them to pay fair price also. Have not had anyone yet who dared lying then or bullying me thereafter.

[JamieLei]

Update: According to the guy who filmed it, "I think the conductor did everything right. They were arguing for about 10 minutes before I started filming."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... named.html

The family of the "victim" are also calling for "Big Man" to be prosecuted. We'll see how this one plays out: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... harge.html .

[orudge]

Even if the story about the ticket mix-up was true, there's no reason to be abusive towards the ticket inspector. While perhaps a little extreme, I'd say the guy got what he deserved.

It is very hard to remove someone from somewhere with them resisting and be "nice" about it. The fact the guy got a hard landing was because by the time he got to the door he was putting up a fight.

I'm slightly confused, are you trying to agree with what I said or did you misinterpret me? I quite agree that by the time the guy was being kicked off, it would have been hard to be "nice". My point was that that guy should have been polite to the inspector to begin with, and then maybe he wouldn't have been kicked off the train in such a manner. Although, as mentioned, we didn't see what happened for the 10 minutes before that.

[John]

I think I was agreeing with you, but providing additional thoughts on the "While perhaps a bit extreme", and that removing someone by force against their will will always look extreme, but I was tired at the time - so who knows what I meant

After 10 minutes I'm surprised the conductor was still that calm about it (although 10 minutes may be an exaggeration).


So, according to the lad, he was attending a university exam - but not smart enough to know to check your tickets after you buy them.
Refused to buy a ticket for £5, even though he had been on a night out and had a bag with cash and an iPad in it.*

And while half asleep, had a 10 minute argument with a conductor about not having a ticket, hurled abuse, got thrown off the train (and landed on his backside), then charging head first into "bigman" before being aware of what was going on and landing on his face.*

I also love how as "bigman" is bundling him off the train and they semi fall onto the woman sitting in the aisle seat, "bigman" apologies before preceding to bundle him off.


But somehow I doubt we will find out if charges as pressed or not, give it another day and that will be the last we hear of it.


*The dailymail reports it both as an iPod and iPad depending on the story. In one story he is quoted as being aware as he is bundled along the train, the other when he lands on his face.

[Ameecher]

The bloke who filmed it and the bloke who was thrown off were both on Reporting Scotland tonight, the guy thrown off was moaning about how he was unfairly treated. BTP are investigating.

[Railwaymodeler]

I can relate somewhat to this story.

Earlier this year, I was returning home from Chicago on a very crowded rush-hour express commuter train. Very crowded, but the trip takes an hour from Chicago to Waukegan, as opposed to an hour and a half for a local train. Besides, most passengers are off midway through the trip.

Got aboard the last car of the train and found a seat. Was riding on the last punch on a ten-ride punchcard.

About 20 minutes later, I moved up a few cars towards the front of the train. Someone had TWO screaming toddlers in our car, and it was driving me bats. Kids had to be three or four, so they were basically being brats.

Moved to the second car on the train, and had a seat.

Apparently I had a minor seizure, which happens when I am under long periods of high stress. As I came out of it, we were leaving the Waukegan station, where I was supposed to get off. Most trains terminate there, but a few go on to Kenosha, Wisconsin. I was on one of those trains.

I went to the crew member in the car, and explained that I had a minor seizure, and just came out of it, and missed my stop.

The guy went bats--t on me! Yelled at me, quite loudly, about "you theiving punks" that "steal rides".

I informed him that my medical condition is documented, I would be happy to give him my doctor's name and phone number. This only served to make the crew madder.

Then I told him I would be more than happy to deboard in Zion, the next stop. Crew member threatened to have the police waiting for me if I didn't give him $20 for "fare".

I knew he was going to pocket that money. Train fare to Waukegan is only about six dollars, Zion maybe seven and a half dollars. Even with a three dollar surcharge for purchasing fare on the train, it would not come to $20!

I told the guy I only had a twenty dollar bill on me and that was it. He told me that if I didn't give it to him, he would call the police, have them waiting, and he also threatened to have the police shoot me to death.

Gave him the $20, and got off in Zion.

Started walking down Sheridan road, it was going to be over 10 miles to walk home, but I saw the last bus of the day heading north. Flagged it down and explained to the driver why I had no fare. He let me ride to the end of the line, and back into Waukegan.


I called Metra the next day and filed a formal complaint. I also informed them that I was going to file a complaint with the state Department of Human Rights, as well as several disability advocate groups.

Metra sent me a check for the $20, as well as a free 10-ride ticket! I later found out too, that the guy was fired from his job. Also found out he was bullying passengers into giving him extra fare, that he was pocketing.

[Jacko]

i think thats much worse than the scotrail guy
what a d***, he deserved to be thrown off!

[GurraJG]

This article is a good reminder that working as a conductor–especially after dark–can be a very dangerous job at times.

[JamieLei]

This is the kind of thing that gating stations should help protect against, but all too often the gates are turned off after the evening peak. Railfans often flag up Chiltern as the "model" operator, conveniently forgetting it runs pretty solely through some of the richest bits of Britain. Other operators still have a duty to serve more deprived communities and the associated problems, with repercussions for the staff...

[Kevo00]

This is the kind of thing that gating stations should help protect against, but all too often the gates are turned off after the evening peak. Railfans often flag up Chiltern as the "model" operator, conveniently forgetting it runs pretty solely through some of the richest bits of Britain. Other operators still have a duty to serve more deprived communities and the associated problems, with repercussions for the staff...

Yep, couldn't agree more. As a frequent traveller by rail in the London area until recently I always wondered what the point of spending money on barriers was if you throw them open at the time that they would be most effective in preventing fare dodging.

Let's hope the conductor in the LTS incident makes a full recovery - but before the waves of condemnation start, let's remember that two young lives have been ruined, probably by an impulsive act that neither understood the full consequences of.

@railwaymoddeler - your story reminds me of stories of people that were stopped for speeding in the US and who were extorted by the 'police'. But of course, you handled what happened in the right way, while it seems to me that this kid on Scotrail did not. Although, both the conductor and the 'bigman' also seem to have overstepped the mark somewhat.