In the midst of a recession? Really?

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michael blunck
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Re: In the midst of a recession? Really?

Post by michael blunck »

The german version gives some more information about starting position, financing and effects of the project.

I always wondered why something like this is that rare.

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Re: In the midst of a recession? Really?

Post by Ameecher »

Ok, perhaps I should have worded it better: how does this actually work? The article says it's paradoxical and I'm damn well having a problem with getting my head round it.
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Re: In the midst of a recession? Really?

Post by doktorhonig »

According to the German article, the city of Hasselt subsidized public transport in 1996 with 300000 €. Now it's 750000 €, which is more. But now, the usage increased by 1300 %, so the costs per passenger have decreased. This is due to the fact, that they don't need 13 times as many buses as before - the usage of the buses is simply higher, which makes them more efficient. And they don't need to print tickets, install and maintain ticket vending machines, check passengers for tickets etc. which makes the system very efficient.
The city now spends 18 € per taxpayer on public transport, which is probably the cheapest "one-year-ticket" in Europe. And since the usage is that high, there are probably not many people, who never use public transport.
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Re: In the midst of a recession? Really?

Post by michael blunck »

Ameecher wrote:Ok, perhaps I should have worded it better: how does this actually work? [...]
In addition to Dr. Honig´s answer:

Another main advantage was reducing car traffic inside the city centre. This allowed sparing high cost for a planned third ring road, and it earned additional money by removing of parking lots and selling those areas.

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Re: In the midst of a recession? Really?

Post by JamieLei »

I suppose once you factor in the cost savings of that third ring road which didn't have to be built, as well as the associated social and environmental factors, then it works quite well.

But for something like London where the bus network is enormous and already well used, then the only way to make it work is if everyone's taxes were hiked by £800 or so.
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Re: In the midst of a recession? Really?

Post by orudge »

JamieLei wrote:But for something like London where the bus network is enormous and already well used, then the only way to make it work is if everyone's taxes were hiked by £800 or so.
I get the feeling schemes like this aren't really targetted at places like London, though, which - as you say - already have public transport networks which are cheap and generally reliable. It's more likely to be successful (I imagine) in smaller towns, which have expensive bus services that nobody uses (no doubt because they're expensive compared to driving). If services were suitably cheap and comprehensive (which is the other issue), then more people are likely to use them.
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Re: In the midst of a recession? Really?

Post by Chris »

orudge wrote:It's more likely to be successful (I imagine) in smaller towns, which have expensive bus services that nobody uses (no doubt because they're expensive compared to driving). If services were suitably cheap and comprehensive (which is the other issue), then more people are likely to use them.
Well yes I would get the bus much more often if it was cheaper, but the other thing is the last bus is usually aorund 7 or 8, which if I've gone ou to the cinema/to a friends house etc. is way too early.
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Re: In the midst of a recession? Really?

Post by doktorhonig »

That's really early. How large is that settlement of yours?
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Re: In the midst of a recession? Really?

Post by audigex »

That is pretty ridiculous - but consider any medium sized town and you've usually got buses every 20 mins until 7ish, half hourly (verging on useless) until 11ish, the nothing until nearly 7am.

Okay, so there are buses in the evening, but if it's only every half an hour then that's quite a bit of waiting around when it's cold and dark even if you know the times - and certainly isn't convenient if you just want to turn up to a bus stop and get a bus. And that's just within the town - as soon as you want to head out of town it gets a lot worse.

Try going from Barrow to Askam on a sunday, for example, and you've got a choice of 2-hourly buses from 10am until 6pm, and no trains. That's a distance of 4 miles.

The service is awful, so ridership drops, which gives companies an excuse to reduce services.

Then consider that you're paying £2.50 return to the city centre (a 10 min bus ride) - two people is actually more expensive than a return taxi, and significantly more expensive than a car, even without taking into account convenience.

Would a scheme like the german one help? I think so, actually - higher riderships would make a much better (more regular, and earlier/later) service worthwhile, leading to even higher riderships and value for money. I'd also suspect it would help the local economy... people are much more likely to head to town if there isn't an initial £10.00 cost for even a small family.
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Re: In the midst of a recession? Really?

Post by Chris »

I live about 4 miles out from High Wycombe, which is a reasonably sized town, with a population of over 100,000. The bus that I would use to/from Wycombe runs from Hemel Hempstead to Amersham (smaller than Wycombe and about 8 miles away) and then Wycombe, and so should/would have quite a lot of custom. However the last bus from Wycombe is at 7:00, and from Amersham is at 7:20, with about a half hourly service, which usually starts just before 7. All in all utterly useless. Thanks a bunch Arriva :( .
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Re: In the midst of a recession? Really?

Post by doktorhonig »

Warmup: Tallinn could be next: http://www.baltic-course.com/eng/transport/?doc=55107

Personally I think it's a bit weird changing such a basic thing after a poll with a participation of only 20%, but if the other 80% actually did care, they should have participated. Another problem is, that it's only free for residents, which unfortunately keeps all the fuss about tickets (they still need to sell them and check them). But still, from a city-planning approach this could be a huge benefit for Tallinn.
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Re: In the midst of a recession? Really?

Post by Ovenbaked »

we already pay many pensioners more than they ever payed in taxes! This is completely unfair especially in the current economic climate, Yeah "respect your elders" and all that but you expect them to at least be thankful for being given money instead of demanding you to fork over more.
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