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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:04 am 
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TrueBrain wrote:
WOW! I JUST PLAYED THIS PATCH WITH 2 OTHER DEVS ON A SERVER! IT WAS f*** EPIC!
I knew this was going to happen. :lol:



In the meantime I found some real feedback. ;)

- Ship depots and buoys do not count towards company assets.
- The locks only count for two tiles, IMHO they should count like bridges (3+) if possible.
- ¿1 airport instead of many airport tiles?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:10 am 
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i may have said this before, or only thought of this: each entry on the finance window should get a "details" window, accessed by something like a [?]-Button next to the value. (for vehicles this will open the vehicle lists, for others some statistic window like the maintenance one)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:42 pm 
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ChillCore wrote:
- Ship depots and buoys do not count towards company assets.
Buoys don't count because they don't have an owner and can by used by any company. Ship depots I could add if wanted.

ChillCore wrote:
- The locks only count for two tiles, IMHO they should count like bridges (3+) if possible.
Locks right now don't count at all, only the water underneath. And that can be from 1 to 3 owned tiles (the slope is always owned canal). Adding the lock itself separately probably makes sense.

ChillCore wrote:
- ¿1 airport instead of many airport tiles?
Counting airports by tile doesn't make sense as for example the city and the metropolitan airport are both 6x6 even if the metropolitan can handle more aircraft. Because of that I opted to assign maintenance costs based on airport type and not number of tiles.

-- Michael Lutz


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:16 pm 
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Michi_cc wrote:
ChillCore wrote:
- Ship depots and buoys do not count towards company assets.

Buoys don't count because they don't have an owner and can by used by any company.
I did not know that buoys do not have owners ... now I do.
michi_cc wrote:
Ship depots I could add if wanted.
Yes please, they are counted for road and rail too.

Michi_cc wrote:
ChillCore wrote:
- The locks only count for two tiles, IMHO they should count like bridges (3+) if possible.

Locks right now don't count at all, only the water underneath. And that can be from 1 to 3 owned tiles (the slope is always owned canal).
Something else I did not know.
Michi_cc wrote:
Adding the lock itself separately probably makes sense.
Yes please ... would make sense a lot.
¿Make it count for "watertiles/canal tiles + 7 pieces" (read: three tiles of concrete and four heavy doors to retain the water)? :twisted:

Michi_cc wrote:
ChillCore wrote:
- ¿1 airport instead of many airport tiles?

Counting airports by tile doesn't make sense as for example the city and the metropolitan airport are both 6x6 even if the metropolitan can handle more aircraft. Because of that I opted to assign maintenance costs based on airport type and not number of tiles.
Makes sense too, I did not think of it that way ... ¿maybe add a hangar count for airports that have a hanger? Although that might make the code too complicated at this stage ...



Thank you for taking the time to learn me a few new things about OpenTTD. ;)
Regards,
ChillCore.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:53 pm 
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ChillCore wrote:
Michi_cc wrote:
ChillCore wrote:
- ¿1 airport instead of many airport tiles?

Counting airports by tile doesn't make sense as for example the city and the metropolitan airport are both 6x6 even if the metropolitan can handle more aircraft. Because of that I opted to assign maintenance costs based on airport type and not number of tiles.
Makes sense too, I did not think of it that way ... ¿maybe add a hangar count for airports that have a hanger? Although that might make the code too complicated at this stage ...

each Airport should just have one [NewGRF-adjustable] maintenance factor property. no fancy size calculation.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:27 pm 
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Eddi wrote:
each Airport should just have one [NewGRF-adjustable] maintenance factor property. no fancy size calculation.

Should I feel lucky now that this is exactly what I've already implemented? 8)

-- Michael Lutz


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:49 am 
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So, where is the multiplicator for the maintenance costs?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:53 pm 
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There are none to tweak unless you change and recompile the source.
All you need to do is enable the patch as described in the first post the rest goes automatic.
You can always use (or make) a basecost NewGRF if you want more control over that. ;)


If you want a better understanding of how exactly it works ... just start a new (test) game and experiment a bit with building stuff.
While doing so ... keep the company overview gui (the one that has your manager picture) open and build some stuff while keeping an eye on the pieces/sections count. eg. Build a rail section on a tile and notice the count being 1, now add a few rail sections on the same tile and notice that when you use all six directions at the same time your rail sections count is 36 instead of 6.
This adds up really quickly and makes for a fun challenge.


ps:
Yes, I know ... mostly copy paste from another thread where I explained this. ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:24 am 
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Based on the feedback and play-testing I've updated YAIM to release 3.1. Binaries are again at http://www.openttd.org/en/download-yaim.

Changes:
  • Tuned base costs for rail, stations and airports (read: made it harder). Should still be good according to our multiplayer test, but please do report back.
  • Locks and ship depots now count extra.
  • Infrastructure window now shows cost per year instead of per month.
  • Infrastructure details now also accessible from the finance window.

-- Michael Lutz


Attachments:
File comment: git patch for r23392
yaim_v3_1.patch [99.7 KiB]
Downloaded 70 times


Last edited by Michi_cc on Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:47 pm 
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What do those numbers in pricebase.h actually mean?

I loaded a longlasting game of mine with v3.0 where I have about 5 Mio € profit/year. And the costs for the rail infrastructure are waaaay too low for me (3.300 € + 14.000 € for stations). If I want to double the costs I just have to double this value in pricebase.h?

EDIT: An what is the concept for railtypes? It is a big difference if you play with swedish rails or with nutracks. The non-linear effect gets totally lost if the total number of track tiles splits up in a lot of railtypes.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:01 pm 
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Dwight_K._Schrute wrote:
If I want to double the costs I just have to double this value in pricebase.h?

Yes, that's it, basically. The "Running cost" difficulty settings also has an effect.

With a rail cost of only 3.300 € though you can't have that many track pieces. The costs will hit you a lot harder when you have a significant pieces (> 10.000).

Dwight_K._Schrute wrote:
EDIT: An what is the concept for railtypes? It is a big difference if you play with swedish rails or with nutracks. The non-linear effect gets totally lost if the total number of track tiles splits up in a lot of railtypes.

Each rail type counts separately as it would otherwise not be possible to allow different cost bases per rail type.

-- Michael Lutz


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:35 pm 
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But why is it progressive? It should be linear or degressive.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:58 pm 
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Logital82 wrote:
But why is it progressive? It should be linear or degressive.

Because the profit curve in OpenTTD is exponential. The purpose of this patch is to balance that effect out.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:03 pm 
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There's a tiny, tiny bug in V3.1 where the value shown for the signal cost in the infrastructure details window is accidentally multiplied by 15 instead of by 12, so it is not "per year" but "per 15 months" :) (Thanks ChillCore)

As this is purely a GUI bug, I won't release an update just for this.

-- Michael Lutz


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:19 pm 
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Michi_cc wrote:
There's a tiny, tiny bug in V3.1 where the value shown for the signal cost in the infrastructure details window is accidentally multiplied by 15 instead of by 12, so it is not "per year" but "per 15 months" :) (Thanks ChillCore)
My pleasure.
Looking forward to testing your new version (as soon as RL activities permit).

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:47 pm 
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Nobody though YAIM totally stupid, so I've gone ahead and commit that stuff to trunk.

The first beta release of 1.2.0 should not be too far off, so it would be a very good idea to speak up before that if you think any of the maintenance base costs or rail/airport type cost factors should be changed.

-- Michael Lutz


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:49 pm 
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Hi,
nice idea.
And why not add this factor as part of difficulty template :
- normal : 1x
- easy : 0.5x
- hard : 2x
- custom : from 0x (no extra cost, like today) to 4x

Regards.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:38 am 
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Another idea would be the introduction of a "maintenance cost factor" into the railtypes feature, which already offer a "construction cost factor". In addition, this would be along the lines of vehicles, which allow to set factors for building cost and maintenance by newGRFs.

regards
Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:07 pm 
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fabca2 wrote:
And why not add this factor as part of difficulty template :

Already possible via (a) the "vehicle running cost" difficulty settings and (b) a base cost NewGRF.

michael blunck wrote:
Another idea would be the introduction of a "maintenance cost factor" into the railtypes feature, which already offer a "construction cost factor".

Already implemented, I just didn't add it to the specs yet, which I have now rectified.

-- Michael Lutz


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:18 pm 
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Michi_cc wrote:
Already possible via (a) the "vehicle running cost" difficulty settings...

so the "vehicule running cost" setting drive both running cost and infrastructure maintenance, that very nice!

maybe can we rename it to "vehicule running and infra maintenance cost".


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