Feasibility of additional road types?

[andythenorth]

Hi OTTD Devs,

How feasible would it be to add one or more additional road types to the game?

The use case I am thinking of would be 'off-highway trails' which are only accessible to a certain class of vehicles. These vehicles would also be able to use regular roads, but regular RVs could not use off-highway trails. Other people might think of other uses & vehicle classes.

The idea is motivated by the newGRF set I am working on for heavy equipment. This is currently an eye-candy set, but would add gameplay interest if only these vehicles could use certain road routes.
http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=37912

The off-highway trails would be incredibly cheap to build. In Arctic, they would be ice roads above the snowline; in Tropic, sand roads; in Temperate mud & rocks. We don't discuss Toyland

trail_example.png (47.86 KiB) Viewed 10867 times

Pic is just to give the general idea; graphics would need to be properly created.

[DJ Nekkid]

well, it should be possible, as we also have a 2nd set of "road" atm, called trams but if it will be done, im not so sure, as it will need a change to the newgrf system as well.

But i do like the idea tho!

[andythenorth]

well, it should be possible, as we also have a 2nd set of "road" atm, called trams but if it will be done, im not so sure, as it will need a change to the newgrf system as well.

That's what I figured. One difference is that trams can only use tram tracks, RVs can only use roads. A tile can be both road and tram track, but that's not quite the same as my idea of allowing some vehicles to use multiple road types. I have no idea how it's coded internally, how path-finding etc would deal with this.

I wondered if trams had been added as an elegant hack, or whether an architecture for multiple road types and vehicles classes has been developed. Elegant hacks tend to be a lot less flexible than an architectural solution.

Perhaps devs could enlighten me

[andythenorth]

well, it should be possible, as we also have a 2nd set of "road" atm, called trams but if it will be done, im not so sure, as it will need a change to the newgrf system as well.

That's what I figured. One difference is that trams can only use tram tracks, RVs can only use roads. A tile can be both road and tram track, but that's not quite the same as my idea of allowing some vehicles to use multiple road types. I have no idea how it's coded internally, how path-finding etc would deal with this.

I wondered if trams had been added as an elegant hack, or whether an architecture for multiple road types and vehicles classes has been developed. Elegant hacks tend to be a lot less flexible than an architectural solution, so I am (1) hoping it's the second solution and (2) hoping OTTD devs think a new 'trail' road type might be a good idea!

Perhaps one or more devs could enlighten me

[Roujin]

In the map array, there are already all the bits "reserved" that would be needed for a third road type. In the code, the third roadtype exists under the name "HIGHWAY", but it is not used, it's let's say a "stub".
The architecture is as far as I have seen it (while making my traffic lights patch) well structured to handle different road types, so to answer that question: no, trams are not only a hack and it would as far as I can see be quite possible to add a third type.

The question only is if you can convince the devs of your idea, and convince someone to actually code it (also a dev, or possibly a community member).

As for the point "Vehicles running not ONLY on a specific track type, but on two": We already have that for trains - steam and diesel trains can run on both non-electrified and electrified track. So I reckon it shouldn't be a problem to allow this for road vehicles too.

[PantyraiderZ]

Well as a betterment of dirt roads and such, remember that in the early days of the automobile, there weren't many paved roads in existence, due to the high costs involved of getting a durable surface and frankly there weren't many people before the Model T that *could* afford a car... Maybe like make it available as the only road type from 1880 - 1920, then have the game swtch to reg. roads thereafter, but keeping the dirt roads for industry and as a cheap and bumpy way of connecting rural towns?

[DanMacK]

This is an excellent idea and I'd definitely use it. Would more than 3 be possible?

[Roujin]

Not without extending the map array.

[andythenorth]

This is an excellent idea and I'd definitely use it. Would more than 3 be possible?

Not without extending the map array.

So:

• Trails
• Roads (existing road type)
• Tramways (existing road type)

...seems to cover most possibilities? I have a feeling that there are some people who want a special type of highway for motorways / freeways, and I've seen some comments about special 'town only' roads with speed limits, but I figure these don't add as much to game play?

How could I persuade devs to add this to the roadmap? I know the standard answer is 'code it yourself', but I don't code C++, and all my OTTD time is currently spent drawing grfs. What I can do is:

• Ask nicely
• Provide grfs that could use a third 'trail' road type
• Help figure out how it works right with gameplay
• Draw graphics for the road type (but I'm better at drawing trucks, the NA roadset guys have a great touch with roads)
• Run a poll asking players what they think ('more faster trains please' will probably be the answer)

cheers,

Andy

[Yexo]

This is an excellent idea and I'd definitely use it. Would more than 3 be possible?

Not without extending the map array.

So:

• Trails
• Highways/Roads (existing road type)
• Tramways (existing road type)

...seems to cover most possibilities?

No, it was about 3 *road* types, not rails. Currently we hav 2 (roads and trams) and there is room for a third.

[andythenorth]

• Trails
• Highways/Roads (existing road type)
• Tramways (existing road type)

...seems to cover most possibilities?

No, it was about 3 *road* types, not rails. Currently we hav 2 (roads and trams) and there is room for a third.

?? Maybe I wasn't clear or something got lost in translation? I didn't mention rails at all.

My thinking is that if there are 3 available road types in the current map array

• one is already assigned to roads
• one is already assigned to trams
• one could be assigned to trails (very cheap dirt roads, only accessible with certain vehicle types)

Hope that makes sense?

[dihedral]

which would ditch the thought behind possible highways?

perhaps it can be reserved for newgrfs to conroll it to their liking?

[andythenorth]

which would ditch the thought behind possible highways?

Yep. I don't know much about highways as a road type. I've searched the forum and wiki for references to them, but couldn't find anything relevant.

What was the thinking behind them? Is there anything that couldn't be achieved with existing one-way roads, and possibly vehicle speed limits?

cheers,

Andy

[DanMacK]

Well, there is already a patch for Vehicle speed limits in and outside towns, and for realism, it's great. With one-way roads, Highways are entirely possible (And have realistic medians )

I'd love to see some dirt roads, especially as I'm hoping on seeing some horse transports in the future. If there are 3 road types, I'm sure that they could be defined by newgrfs. If for instance, somebody wants to make a Superhighway set and doesn't want the dirt roads, they should have that option. I'd personally like to see an option for 2 types of catenary (trolleybus and tram) but that, would most likely, take up thethird road type.

That aside, I seriously think this should be looked at, and if it isn't too awful much trouble, implemented

[andythenorth]

Well, there is already a patch for Vehicle speed limits in and outside towns, and for realism, it's great. With one-way roads, Highways are entirely possible (And have realistic medians )

That's what I figured. I can build "highways" already as two lane roads, I don't see the need for a new road type for that use case. Doesn't add game play in ways that couldn't be done using other methods.

loader_teaser.png (12.21 KiB) Viewed 10146 times

That aside, I seriously think this should be looked at, and if it isn't too awful much trouble, implemented

Thanks for the support on this Dan. For me this is driven by the opportunities made possible by the improved engine pool; we can now have lots more RVs, and there's a good use case for vehicles that can go 'cross-country' (whether it's a horse or a Nodwell). Regular RVs can't do that.

I also think a cheaper, but limited road type adds something to the game in the same way as narrow gauge rails/trains do in Can Set (cheaper to build, but slow vehicles).

Any devs care to comment

[dunbrine47]

That's what I figured. I can build "highways" already as two lane roads, I don't see the need for a new road type for that use case. Doesn't add game play in ways that couldn't be done using other methods.

loader_teaser.png

Any devs care to comment

I'm not a dev but the problem with one way roads is that they are not used to thier full capaticty.
All the RV's only use one lane,the other lane is just used for passing.
Just my two cents.

[cmoiromain]

this is actually how it is supposed to work IRL... Except with a dense traffic, vehicles should stick to the right (or left, depending on where you live...). But just to make it look more fun, I agree both lanes should be used. that of course requires to have arrows on all motorway tiles. But having this behaviour would maybe enable both loading bays to be used on drive through road stops, which is a feature I would love to see implemented.

To come back to topic, I agree dirt roads would be pretty fun to play with, with horse cars and then with the heavy vehicles set. But I don't know how feasible it is...

And there is one thing to sort out: can tram tracks be built on dirt roads? I'd say no, because I see those roads as messy, muddy roads where a rail would not stay in place. OTOH, tram tracks that aren't built on normal roads are on rough earth...

[andythenorth]

And there is one thing to sort out: can tram tracks be built on dirt roads? I'd say no, because I see those roads as messy, muddy roads where a rail would not stay in place. OTOH, tram tracks that aren't built on normal roads are on rough earth...

I'd say you're right: real-life tram tracks require serious infrastructure works, proper foundations, etc.

A real-life dirt road is created by running a bulldozer, motor grader, mule-powered grader, or flock of sheep over the landscape a few times.

In the case of laying tram tracks over a dirt road, I think this would convert the dirt road to a tarmac road + tram tracks.

[Roujin]

The point with road types (also the NYI highway/whatever one) is that (unlike train types) you are able to put any combination of them on the four edges of one tile. That is a bit redundant for both highways and trails, since in my opinion these don't have to be combinable with normal roads.
Either there is a normal road, or a trail. Not both. Same goes for the idea of highways.

Someone in here mentioned horse carriages. They would (along heavy trucks) also be able to drive on trails. That is a nice coincidence, because iirc Zephyris is atm working on horse carriages for his generic road vehicle set, so that players will be able to start the game earlier if they want (in the 1850s or something)...

So to sum it up, I like this idea very much. I also have some experience with OTTD code and would be willing to help you out. Only thing is that university is keeping me a bit busy at the moment, so it won't be a speed job
I'll also talk to the devs and point them to this topic a bit and ask them about their opinion.. without their support it will be impossible, since there are things involved that are well outside my scope - like adding the property to the newgrf system for road vehicles to specify if they are able to go on trails.


Feel free to provide some graphics. Here's the file for trams, so you'll know what is needed roughly: svn://svn.openttd.com/extra/ottd_grf/split/tramtracks.pcx (You'll need SVN to get it, if you're having troubles, i can post it here.)

Of course you don't need overhead wires and depot and station can be omitted too (for now at least) i think.

[andythenorth]

The point with road types (also the NYI highway/whatever one) is that (unlike train types) you are able to put any combination of them on the four edges of one tile. That is a bit redundant for both highways and trails, since in my opinion these don't have to be combinable with normal roads.

There would need to be junctions between trails and roads. This might be one of the more complex elements?

So to sum it up, I like this idea very much. I also have some experience with OTTD code and would be willing to help you out. Only thing is that university is keeping me a bit busy at the moment, so it won't be a speed job

Yep, obviously these things take time to do right. Trails need to be well thought through from a gameplay perspective and ensuring they don't put any unhelpful constraints on the codebase. I also think it needs to be clear to developers that there are polished grf sets that will support trails. We need to offer a good enough solution to get it into trunk, same as trams.

My first aim would be to get trails (or a 3rd newgrf-controlled road type) placed on the roadmap for OTTD 0.7. How can that be done?

Feel free to provide some graphics. Here's the file for trams...[snip]...You'll need SVN to get it, if you're having troubles, i can post it here.)

Thanks - I'm checking it out in Eclipse now, I'll ask for help if I run into SVN problems.