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OpenGFX is a base set. I would expect base sets to be a top level item.

For reference see the current base set category:
http://bananas.openttd.org/en/base/

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i think that concept is flawed... sometimes GRFs don't neatly align with features. Tags were supposed to solve this, not sure if they actually achieved that.

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That link tells me that OpenGFX is a category of which OpenGFX.grf is a file. My proposal suggests a category that would list the files found in the link you posted.
I have no problem if the developers accept my proposal and then rearrange the folders to where they feel to be most appropriate.
That said, my OpenTTD 1.2.0 stable installation showed in the Game Options window that OpenGFX was included in the install process. I did not see it in NewGRF Settings nor did I see it in the Online Content menu. I did see the other OpenGFX files. Did I do something wrong with my install?

Could you cite an example? I'm sure that the proposal could be amended to compensate.

By the way, what do you folks think of the overall structure? Could it work as a front end to BaNaNaS?

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Not so much. The NewGRFs with the highest download count are around the longest without update. Download count is - as shown currently - more a indicator of age than anything else.


We can fully agree there, I think.

As things can only improve in an atmosphere of constructive feedback, I very much appreciate this endeavour which is now starting. Probably big advances can be made by a new web frontend attached to bananas - as currently it allows much less than what is accessible and feasible ingame. Ingame you can e.g. easily view readmes and licenses and even visit the websites of the NewGRFs while searching for specifics via the tags which frosch mentioned in another posting.


Let me assure you that this interest is not TrueBrain's interest alone, but very much also mine (and as I understand others) as well.



Your install (most likely) is quite fine.

There are base sets like OpenGFX, OpenMSX, OpenSFX of the Scott Joplin Anthology or also the (original) TTD graphics constitute part of a base set (OpenTTD supplies the missing parts, among them openttd.grf). Graphic base sets are NOT NewGRFs.

There are NewGRFs, some bear OpenGFX in their name, or rather "OpenGFX+". They're normal NewGRFs like every other though. Their similarity in the name is just an indication of the graphics style and their intention: Gentle extension of the base set without modifying the play style fundamentally. E.g. "just" providing full cargo support for vehicles, full support for early and future vehicles, fully snowyness support for houses, industries, infrastructure...

Nevertheless, there ARE some (slightly older) versions of OpenGFX where the extra NewGRF was somewhat broken and not properly recognized as base grf, thus it shows up in those cases (also) as normal NewGRF. That is an error in those OpenGFX versions.

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opengfx.obg? ... And would they belong on BaNaNaS?

Does a folder containing these require prominence (At the top) of a menu accessing their repository?

Although I did see the "+" files in the Online Content. I did not see the base GRF.

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On the chance to sidetrack, there's different categories in bananas which have different content, some optional, some required. Let's see how the single entities look like, in some examples:
Basesets
graphics base set

• OpenGFX-0.4.4/license.txt
  license information, optional, license needs to be supplied or chosen upon upload to bananas via drop-down, though.
• OpenGFX-0.4.4/opengfx.obg
  base set description file, required. For the TTD basesets OpenTTD supplies the respective obg files.
• OpenGFX-0.4.4/ogfx1_base.grf
  base / temperate grf, required, most sprites, focus on temperate climate
• OpenGFX-0.4.4/ogfxc_arctic.grf
  arctic grf, required, things which are different in arctic than in temperate
• OpenGFX-0.4.4/ogfxe_extra.grf
  extra grf, required, OpenTTD specific extensions over TTD itself. For the TTD basesets, OpenTTD supplies openttd.grf
• OpenGFX-0.4.4/ogfxh_tropical.grf
  tropic grf, required, thus things which are different in tropic than in temperate
• OpenGFX-0.4.4/ogfxi_logos.grf
  logo grf, required, some special things like newspaper background
• OpenGFX-0.4.4/ogfxt_toyland.grf
  toyland grf, required, things which are different in toyland than in temperate
• OpenGFX-0.4.4/changelog.txt
  changelog of the set, optional, displayed ingame
• OpenGFX-0.4.4/readme.txt
  readme of the set, optional, displayed ingame

sound base set

• OpenSFX-0.2.3/opensfx.obs
  Sound set description file, required. For the TTD base set a file is supplied
• OpenSFX-0.2.3/opensfx.cat
  Sound file, required
• OpenSFX-0.2.3/license.txt
  license information, optional, license needs to be supplied or chosen upon upload to bananas via drop-down, though.
• OpenSFX-0.2.3/changelog.txt
  changelog of the set, optional, displayed ingame
• OpenSFX-0.2.3/readme.txt
  readme of the set, optional, displayed ingame

music base set

• openmsx-nightly/changelog.txt
  changelog of the set, optional, displayed ingame
• openmsx-nightly/license.txt
  license information, optional, license needs to be supplied or chosen upon upload to bananas via drop-down, though.
• openmsx-nightly/openmsx.obm
  Sound set description file, required. For the TTD base set a file is supplied
• openmsx-nightly/readme.txt
  readme of the set, optional, displayed ingame
• openmsx-nightly/linns_basket.mid
  all songs, each as a separate midi file as named in the obm file

NewGRFs

• firs/firs.grf
  The NewGRF itself, required
• firs/changelog.txt
  changelog of the set, optional, displayed ingame
• firs/license.txt
  license information, optional, license needs to be supplied or chosen upon upload to bananas via drop-down, though.
• firs/readme.txt
  readme of the set, optional, displayed ingame
• URL to project site can be supplied ingame via action14
• short description supplied ingame via action14

AIs and game scripts

• CluelessPlus-32/license.txt
  license information, optional, license needs to be supplied or chosen upon upload to bananas via drop-down, though.
• CluelessPlus-32/info.nut
  AI description file, required
• CluelessPlus-32/main.nut
  Main AI file, required
• CluelessPlus-32/pairfinder.nut
  Other .nut files as required by main.nut
• CluelessPlus-32/changelog.txt
  changelog of the AI, optional, displayed ingame
• CluelessPlus-32/readme.txt
  readme of the AI, optional, displayed ingame

libraries

• SuperLib-24/license.txt
  license information, optional, license needs to be supplied or chosen upon upload to bananas via drop-down, though.
• SuperLib-24/library.nut
  Library description file
• SuperLib-24/main.nut
  Main library file
• SuperLib-24/log.nut
  Other .nut files as required by main.nut
• SuperLib-24/readme.txt
  readme of the library, optional, displayed ingame
• SuperLib-24/changelog.txt
  changelog of the library, optional, displayed ingame

Heightmaps

• Uruguay_Heightmap.1.1/license.txt
  license information, optional, license needs to be supplied or chosen upon upload to bananas via drop-down, though.
• Uruguay_Heightmap.1.1/Uruguay.png
  Heightmap file, required
• Uruguay_Heightmap.1.1/Uruguay.png.id
  Identifier, automatically assigned by Bananas
• Uruguay_Heightmap.1.1/Uruguay.png.title
  Name / title. automatically As described upon upload in bananas

Scenario

• Skadi_Islands__by_Purno_.1/license.txt
  license information, optional, license needs to be supplied or chosen upon upload to bananas via drop-down, though.
• Skadi_Islands__by_Purno_.1/Skadi Islands.scn
  Scenario file, required
• Skadi_Islands__by_Purno_.1/Skadi Islands.scn.id
  identifier. automatically, Assigned automatically by bananas
• Skadi_Islands__by_Purno_.1/Skadi Islands.scn.title
  Name / title. automatically As described upon upload in bananas

license.txt can also be called COPYING or even license.pdf. Only the txt form can be displayed ingame
readme.txt can also be readme.pdf. Only the txt form can be displayed ingame.


You will see them when you access the online content ingame from the main menu (where you can download all types of online content as outlined above). But not when accessing it from the NewGRF configuration dialogue.

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Thank you gentlemen. How does the proposal look now?

The proposal already includes a [License] button.
Should it have a [Readme] button as well, or will it suffice to assume that a readme wouldl be covered under the [Details] button?

OH LOOK! There they are!
Thank you.
Yes ... I can see your point. I merely used the features as a starting point for my thought process. Hence the [**] tags.
Is there any reason why a file couldn't have more than one tag and appear under more than one category?

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tags, in the current implementation, are random words. you can have as many tags as you like, and you can make them up on the spot if you feel the existing ones don't suffice. the ingame content download can search/filter for tags (although that may be improve-worthy, e.g. by having a tag-cloud). making up your own tags may make things more difficult to find.

tags allow you for example to group grfs by modelled country, not only by feature, which is a completely orthogonal category system.

imagine what a user wants: "give me all germany-themed grfs", or "give me all grfs by pikka", or ...

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I think tags can exist next to predefined categories. The categories will allow for simply browsing everything that is available in a sort of orderly fashion. The tags allow for search actions when looking for something specific.

As for the tree-menu proposal: I think the basic idea is good, but that it doesn't necessarily need to be displayed in a tree view. While one can have a tree internally, there's no need to present that to the user as a tree. See for instance GRFCrawler, that too has a tree structure, but nowhere is it presented as a tree.

I still lean towards adopting the GRFCrawler categories for BaNaNaS as well. We are all familiar with those categories, know where to find what using them, so why change something that just works? Of course some additional (sub)categories can be added, but in the basis it's solid.

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I think that is still workable.
My proposal is for a front end page that would greet the player looking for a download.
There is no reason why that page could not include a search box. (Afterthought: I think this should be mandatory )
The search could then return a selection according to the entered terms (tags?).
The selection results could then be displayed either in a pop-up or as a replacement page (Which would be best?)

Something I forgot to include in my proposal - Check boxes for downloading multiple files all in one go. This would be mandatory for a search results page.

How does that sound?

I have to agree. A graphical GUI is always best and I think that was the secret to GRFCrawler's success.
This does not mean that my proposal is invalid. It just needs graphics.
Per my response to Eddi's concerns, I still think some sort of search results page should be included and that does not need to be graphical.
Could the ingame menu be treed (with a search box, of course) while the front end is GUI?

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Hehe .

Otherwise it all sounds good .

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Screenshots

Here are my gripes:

• I cannot filter based on type (scenario, gamescript, newgrf);
• There is no option to select a bunch of items which "belong together" (everything Dutch, for example);
• In the case of scenarios and heightmaps a preview would be nice (png image);
• I can't see when something was last updated (timestamp), unless the author bothered to put it in the description.

There are some circumstances in which an older version of a particular file is needed (for example when loading a downloaded game from the forums), why not take a RCS (revision control system) approach to online content?

Discover and use the online content from the 'load savegame' dialogue If any missing NewGRF is available in the online content you can retrieve the required version from there (and only there).

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The only way for us to move forward and try to achieve something for the good of this entire TTDLX-community is to put as much as possible of previous arguings, conflicts and the sort behind us. We're a rather small community when it comes down to it, and we simply cannot afford to have these issues arise over and over again as we'll loose not only interest in the game we all love itself, but also risk loosing members and above all newcomers that in the end may turn out to be potentially great artists and coders benefitial for us all...

As mentioned earlier we can't of course expect everyone of us to always agree on things, but the important thing is to understand that we do have different opinions in matters which needs to be respected. And it's of course equally important that we approach each others with the outmost respect when discussions of any kind arises so that we can reach a sufficient solution, be it a compromize at times, be it something else... As long as we try to get along and uphold this entire TTDLX-family to the best of our abilities...

As for categories, I understand that some want to be able to list .grf's in many different ways using whatever category criteria to achieve this. But is it possible to come to some agreement of minimum/maxium categories, rather than making all this even more difficult with endless of different categories for it to see the light of the day?

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I work for an online e-commerce business that extensively uses a category system to list and sort products.

The way it works for us is that the product has ONE entry. It has its own url on the site, and can be searched.

The categories work to improve navigation and to help us group together items that have similar features. That way, they can appear in as many categories as desired. So, let's assume we take the UKRS2 (what else? Best set there is haha): It could appear in categories referring to what the GRF provides ("Trains"), the theme ("UK"), and various other things the GRF owner deems that their GRF fits in to.

We use a bespoke back office here, but I'm pretty sure the average ecommerce system would do this - you could design the front end to have no "basket", and instead provide download links on each GRF page.

By giving each GRF a page, readmes, parameter details and all other sorts of information can be provided.

EDIT: The original categories would have to be pre-defined by the site developer; but there'd need to be discussion to decide what categories would be included. Then each GRF owner would add their GRF to relevant categories. if one didn't exist, we could provide a system to request a category be created.

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I have to agree with SAC on this.
Foobars' recommendation for a GRFCrawler style GUI tree structure is a good starting point, perhaps with a button option to switch to a "text" menu for those who might be more comfortable with text.
The next item would be what goes into (onto?) the tree? (Bananas on a Banana Tree? )
The categories listed in my suggestion are all drawn from what is already described in the online content menu.
Does that list really need further refinement? Perhaps this could be rephrased to "What is the player looking for?". I think the most obvious answer would be "sets" ... stuff to use and see in his/her game.
Everything else is an afterthought, important afterthoughts mind you, but afterthoughts nonetheless. My tree suggestion and GRFCrawler deal with these via buttons that lead to a Details page.
Next, we come to the player who has a particular theme in mind and would rather not have to poke through a tree structure, no matter how pretty and intuitive the GUI.
This is the function of the Search Box. This is where the player defines his/her own unique category. We cannot and should not attempt to do this for the player or we would have as many predefined categories as we have players.
This is where the authors come in. They supply tags appropriate to their file. Similarly, we cannot do this for them. It is up to the author to determine a tag name scheme that will respond to a player's search query.
Finally we come to the goal of this whole exercise ... The Download!
I like Dave's shopping cart example. It accommodates one or many all in one go. Perhaps in keeping with the game we could call it a Box Car or a Goods Van, or in keeping with the theme of the repository, we could call it a "Banana Boat".

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When you use the search function and no matching results are found, the webpage should say, "Yes, we have no BaNaNaS. We have no BaNaNaS today!"

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Sounds like we need a search filter stack.
- filter for each bananas metadata field (design needs to define what these fields should be)
- filters are based on partial strings; selects; booleans, ranges (for dates etc)
- apply filters in real time (can do this assuming we have a sane amount of data and reasonably modern user agents capable of ok js performance)
- don't make it too complicated: not too many fields, avoid complications like choosing 'and/or' for filter combination

Some stuff about such things here: http://theresaneil.wordpress.com/2008/0 ... xperience/

Filter stack will be familiar to people from things like advanced search. Ticketing systems usually have them, your OS file search probably has one.

This would allow browsing by simple category ("trains", "grfs tagged 'Sweden'") or more complex queries ("recently updated grfs by pikka tagged 'uk'").

Enhancements:
- detect actions inside the grf, so we know automatically 'this grf contains trains', 'this grf contains new objects' etc. Some grfs contain more than one thing, simple classification doesn't work for all cases
- searches saved / available as rss feed (easier than it sounds to save searches, it's just a url with query vars)
- embeddable widgets rendering saved searches, e.g. OpenTTD Coop site could show "all recently updated grfs tagged coop" or such; done with js or straight html in an iframe

-- tl;dr --
"all will be fine"

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I think people are more often asking for NewGRFs that have maglev trains, likewise a NewGRF having road vehicles says fairly little as well: are they busses, trucks, pax trams or cargo trams? So quickly you end up doing much more than checking what actions exist and then all hell breaks loose; railtypes, action 6, 7, 9, D. Especially when railtypes and the actions are interfering.

Likewise, you'd like to know which cargos a particular NewGRF supports.