Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki, ..)

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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by Hyronymus »

michael blunck wrote:Please note that this wasn´t a "simple" copyright violation like so many before, but this time it was more of a "criminal" act, insofar some individual deliberately removed my custom license from a newGRF zip file, just to upload it anew an Bananas with a GPL license added.
Michael I understand that this looks very, very much like an intentional act but you nor anyone else will ever be able to proof it. Surely some reserve from your side would have been more appropriate.

What I miss in this entire discussion sofar is sanity and the responsibility of authors themselves. It is very easy to place them blame on content providers for violating copyrights but all they do is hosting content. The copyright breaking party is the uploader, intentionally or unintentionally. Finally, it is up to authors themselves to defend their copyright. You can be aided in this by other people who make you aware of a violation of course and ideally a content provider notices it. As an example I added a procedure that ties in with the DCMA. The example clearly shows that an author must file a complaint:
Procedure for Reporting Copyright Infringements wrote: If you believe that content residing on or accessible through this website or service infringes your copyright, please send a notice of claimed copyright infringement containing the following information to the Designated Agent listed below (consult legal counsel or refer to 17 U.S.C. 512(c) to confirm these requirements):
1. A physical or electronic signature of a person authorized to act on behalf of the owner of the copyright that has been allegedly infringed;
2. Identification of the copyrighted works claimed to have been infringed, or if multiple copyrighted works at a single online site are covered by a single notification, a representative list of such works at that site;
3. Identification of the material that is claimed to be infringing or to be the subject of infringing activity and that is to be removed or access to which is to be disabled, and information reasonably sufficient to permit the website to locate the material;
4. Contact information for the notifier, such as an address, telephone number and, if available, an e-mail address;
5. A statement that the notifier has a good faith belief that use of the material in the manner complained of is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law; and
6. A statement that the information in the notification is accurate, and under penalty of perjury, that the notifying party is authorized to act on behalf of the owner of the copyright that is allegedly infringed.

Once a complete and proper notice of claimed copyright infringement is received by the Designated Agent, or if the website otherwise comes to believe in good faith that a file on the the website service may contain material that infringes copyright it is the website's policy:
1. to remove or disable access to the content identified in the notice of claimed infringement;
2. to notify the content provider, member or user that it has removed or disabled access to the content; and
3. to terminate in appropriate circumstances subscribers and account holders who are repeat infringers.
EDIT: Class 165 beat me to saying that it's the copyright holder's duty to track copyright violations :(.
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by Chris »

Hyronymus wrote:EDIT: Class 165 beat me to saying that it's the copyright holder's duty to track copyright violations :(.
You put it far more elegantly than me :) .
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by TrueBrain »

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by Rubidium »

michael blunck wrote:(I mailed TB and Rubidium
Lovely... then I will reply to that when I'm back from my month of holiday and I have access to the password for that email account. This is, amongst others, the reason why such requests are not to be sent to individual developers.
SAC wrote:It's a Pirate Bay situation then... As long as your host is fine with it... :roll:
More a youtube situation.

Many illegal things are uploaded to youtube, but I have not heard of anyone sending an email to the boss of google and getting annoyed that, while on vacation, he didn't reply to your mail within 12 hours.

But please... take down OpenTTD, then TTDPatch will be even more dead as you would also take down quite a bit of infrastructure of TTDPatch. So in effect, by taking down OpenTTD you take down the whole platform for your NewGRFs.

Even when going through all the mess with OpenTTD on Apple's appstore, I had to take all kinds of steps to prove that I was who I claimed to be, and even they asked the person who uploaded it. All in all took more than a week. I'd be happy to implement these stricter procedures here as well. That way we don't remove copyrighted material unless one can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you are the owner and that the person that uploaded it was in violation.

It might very well be that the NewGRF he uploaded to BaNaNaS was one of the GRFs in those massive OpenTTD torrents which already had your license replaced with GPL. Then the person who uploaded didn't even, knowingly, do anything wrong besides uploading when he was not the author.

In any case, so far we replied faster than Apple has and asked less questions. Furthermore we have implemented basically the same procedure as Apple/Google with respect to copyright infringements, although we ask less proof that the content is actually illegally uploaded.

Furthermore it isn't like there are thousands of uploads a day. So it should be relatively easy to check once in a while if you're really concerned, or even make google alert send you and email when it found something.
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by SAC »

Rubidium wrote:Furthermore it isn't like there are thousands of uploads a day. So it should be relatively easy to check once in a while if you're really concerned...
In fact, there are so few uploads even on a weekly or a monthly basis, so it wouldn't be a problem if you had a system that requires some sort of approval before an uploaded file is available to the public... And I'm sure you can find the time to do so if you spend less time backstabbing people in other medias as soon as someone you dislike from this community happens to have an errand...
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by Rubidium »

SAC wrote:so it wouldn't be a problem if you had a system that requires some sort of approval before an uploaded file is available to the public...
The only, major, problem with that is that if something slips through that is illegal, is that OpenTTD would be legaly liable/accountable because a physical OpenTTD person has stated that it is not violating any copyright. As not all copyrighted NewGRFs are available for public viewing, it is impossible for us to be sure something does not violate some else's copyright.

So you are effectively asking for bananas to be shut down, but then also ask for this forum to be shut down because nobody actively accepts each upload here either (and it should as there have been illegal uploads). I wonder whether you, on your forum, screen all uploads and make sure that they are not violating anyone's copyright.
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by Xaroth »

SAC wrote:
Rubidium wrote:Furthermore it isn't like there are thousands of uploads a day. So it should be relatively easy to check once in a while if you're really concerned...
In fact, there are so few uploads even on a weekly or a monthly basis, so it wouldn't be a problem if you had a system that requires some sort of approval before an uploaded file is available to the public... And I'm sure you can find the time to do so if you spend less time backstabbing people in other medias as soon as someone you dislike from this community happens to have an errand...
Why, for the love of <insert deity>, do you keep being so keen on having other people doing your work?

You, as a copyright holder, have the task to verify that your copyright is not violated.

But, because you are apparently more keen on silly discussions (without bringing any substantial arguments, I might add), you keep trying to push that task towards the content provider

While, as has been mentioned several times, that said content providers have NO liability what-so-ever, regarding the content their userbase uploads.


Now, and don't give me the 'but you have the time' bollocks, explain me, why exactly, should we force the OpenTTD team something they should not have to do, because the people who should be doing it, refuse to?
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by SAC »

Rubidium wrote:The only, major, problem with that is that if something slips through that is illegal, is that OpenTTD would be legaly liable/accountable because a physical OpenTTD person has stated that it is not violating any copyright. As not all copyrighted NewGRFs are available for public viewing, it is impossible for us to be sure something does not violate some else's copyright.
I admit this is a problem, although I'd say it would be a much bigger problem are we talking about hundreds of uploads on a weekly or a monthly basis here. I would personally set up some sort of control/approval to ensure that uploads of files without permission is minimized. There are in fact very few people who develop files within this community, and considering how easily we could detect unauthorized uploads in other game communities, (especially since custom files usually comes with some distinctive marks), where we're talking about a lot more files in cirkulation, I'd say it's a small effort overall...
Rubidium wrote:I wonder whether you, on your forum, screen all uploads and make sure that they are not violating anyone's copyright.
Should it happen, members are usually very quickly to point this out. And this is how I found out about some of my own files ended up on the BaNaNaS. As for SimuLibs, any uploader is given a personal category of its own should it be required, and I'd say it's rather impossible for anyone to upload anything that doesn't belong to the uploader. Again, after all, this community isn't THAT big, and the number of file developers aren't THAT many, so it's quite easy to recognize something that isn't what it should be... :))
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by Chris »

If there are so few uploads as you say then why don't you take the time to check BaNaNaS on a weekly basis to see if any of your files have been uploaded erroneously? You seem to take your rights as copyright holder very, very seriously, as does michael blunck - even enough to fire off several very angry e-mails to mirrors and OpenTTD developers when he found out that his copyright had been violated, so why don't you bother to check the files on the content providers regularly?

Seriously, to me it doesn't look like you care that much if a copyright has been violated as you never check such content providers to see if it has been. If it was that important to you, you would take the time to check them and alert the OpenTTD team. You care about your copyright, but not enough to use your own time to protect it. It is your responsibility, nobody else's, so stop trying to shrug it off.
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by Yexo »

SAC wrote:
Rubidium wrote:The only, major, problem with that is that if something slips through that is illegal, is that OpenTTD would be legaly liable/accountable because a physical OpenTTD person has stated that it is not violating any copyright. As not all copyrighted NewGRFs are available for public viewing, it is impossible for us to be sure something does not violate some else's copyright.
I admit this is a problem, although I'd say it would be a much bigger problem are we talking about hundreds of uploads on a weekly or a monthly basis here. I would personally set up some sort of control/approval to ensure that uploads of files without permission is minimized. There are in fact very few people who develop files within this community, and considering how easily we could detect unauthorized uploads in other game communities, (especially since custom files usually comes with some distinctive marks), where we're talking about a lot more files in cirkulation, I'd say it's a small effort overall...
Once again you skip the major problem, which is not the amount of time it would take to verify all uploads (this is a problem, but not the first one). The biggest problem is that the OpenTTD developers (the persons clicking on "accept upload") would be legally accountable. Nobody wants this responsibility, so we won't start checking every upload.
I completely agree with you that the amount of work would probably be doable, but it isn't possible to do this perfectly and the legal responsibility is a problem.
Rubidium wrote:I wonder whether you, on your forum, screen all uploads and make sure that they are not violating anyone's copyright.
Should it happen, members are usually very quickly to point this out. And this is how I found out about some of my own files ended up on the BaNaNaS. As for SimuLibs, any uploader is given a personal category of its own should it be required, and I'd say it's rather impossible for anyone to upload anything that doesn't belong to the uploader. Again, after all, this community isn't THAT big, and the number of file developers aren't THAT many, so it's quite easy to recognize something that isn't what it should be... :))
So how would you detect that I upload images drawn by person A. Image person A has drawn them, send them privately to me but to nobody else. I upload the images, you screen them, give them ok since you haven't seen them before. At this point person A says: "Hey, those are my images. You're responsible because it's your forum!".
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by andythenorth »

SAC wrote:As for SimuLibs, any uploader is given a personal category of its own should it be required, and I'd say it's rather impossible for anyone to upload anything that doesn't belong to the uploader.
Impossible? Sounds like a ridiculous claim.

It would be trivially easy to game this claim, all it would take is two people, the first of whom is prepared to violate the second's copyright and upload something to Simuscape that they have no rights to; the second person then issues a DMCA or EDEC takedown notice to your ISP, whilst ignoring any sensible measures you may be taking as service provider and claiming (with lies / fabricated evidence) that your site is a regular source of problems.

Ultimately you could likely sue these two people - for libel and wasting your time and money - but in the meantime Simuscape might be offline if you have an over-zealous ISP.

Or do you moderate all attachments before allowing them to be published? If that's the case you take all the legal risk as a publisher and you really shouldn't be taking on that much risk.
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by TrueBrain »

To give some random statistics, as it seems to contribute:

There have been 4000+ files uploaded to BaNaNaS in 3.5 years. Of those 4000 uploads, 22 have been marked 'invalid' for various of reasons. 16 of those have legit reasons outside the scope of copyright infringement. Only 6, in 3.5 years, have been 'illegally' uploaded, for one reason or the other.

Additionally, NewGRFs that are uploaded and found to be in violation, or in some cases upon authors request, are marked in the system as such, that uploading the same file again will fail. This has been extended to even allow blacklisting GRFids, and not only a certain GRF (version).

This to point out how small the problem is you try to fix is. There isn't a structural problem, but there are incidents. We are not ThePirateBay, and not even Youtube (I am sure they have a much higher violation-report rate). In general, the community behaves with respect to all authors of content supplied to them.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it is okay this happens. It is not. But in my opinion, and I am not alone here, we do the best we can to prevent it. But there is only so much a content service can do.


Legally, implementing a system you suggest for the purpose of screening illegal files, would put us in a very very nasty position in case one slips through, like Rubidium points out. We cannot be hold responsible for uploads that are not legal. It is (by law) the job of the author to protect his copyright, as it is (by law) our job to respond to claims. (as Yexo also pointed out, again).


I do understand that you as author of a NewGRF want to protect your legal ownership. But this is The Internet. How sad it might sound, people do things that are not allowed. All we can do, from both your end and ours, is to prevent it as much as possible. We do that by increasing the awareness to people that they should never upload content not theirs. You can do that by informing us about violations. We fix them. And everyone is happy.


If you do have other good suggestions for us to increase awareness of copyright, please do post them in this thread: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=61265

This thread is merely meant to inform you guys what happened, what should have happened, and what is considered acceptable behaviour and not. And, which seems highly successful, to increase the awareness to our community as a whole: do not upload content that doesn't belong to you.
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by Hyronymus »

SAC wrote:Should it happen, members are usually very quickly to point this out. And this is how I found out about some of my own files ended up on the BaNaNaS. As for SimuLibs, any uploader is given a personal category of its own should it be required, and I'd say it's rather impossible for anyone to upload anything that doesn't belong to the uploader. Again, after all, this community isn't THAT big, and the number of file developers aren't THAT many, so it's quite easy to recognize something that isn't what it should be... :))
So where this mechanism is OK for your own forum you want Bananas to do it differently? Why, because it's bigger or because it's different? Different it is not and, as I stated in my earlier post and here, it's the copyright holder who needs to report issues (or someone who is the legal representative of the copyright holder). Please stop ruminating this point as it is no point.

Given what I wrote I like to spend our energy in devising viable solutions to prevent future events starting from the points I described. Having an adapted version of the Procedure for Reporting Copyright Infringements that I posted should suffice in my opinion, together with a higher awareness and responsivenes of Bananas users whenever they spot a possible copyright infringement.
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by SAC »

Well, good thing is that there's now a specific abuse contact information available should anyone find problems with any files uploaded to the BaNaNaS... It only had to take two months from when it was addressed latest and an actual copyright violation for it to be implemented... :rolleyes:

But better late then never I suppose...
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by ChillCore »

SAC wrote: Well, good thing is that there's now a specific abuse contact information available should anyone find problems with any files uploaded to the BaNaNaS
Sorry to say you have you misread ...
TrueBrain wrote: ...
if you ever have any issue with services provided by openttd.org, please do contact us at info@openttd.org.
...
As of today there is an alias for this address: abuse@openttd.org.
...
Cheers,
ChillCore.

Ps:
I feel SAD, very very sad, having to have to read these kind of topics.
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by Hyronymus »

SAC wrote:Well, good thing is that there's now a specific abuse contact information available should anyone find problems with any files uploaded to the BaNaNaS... It only had to take two months from when it was addressed latest and an actual copyright violation for it to be implemented... :rolleyes:

But better late then never I suppose...
Again, you can blame the Bananas crew but you could've advised this to the Bananas team yourself. But to be honest I doubt if you were knowledgable to that extent before this happened (which isn't an acquisition, just my published private thought).
ChillCore wrote:Ps:
I feel SAD, very very sad, having to have to read these kind of topics.
You shouldn't, this is the only way to improve a great service like Bananas. One learns from mistakes, not from fortune.
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by Michi_cc »

SAC wrote:Well, good thing is that there's now a specific abuse contact information available should anyone find problems with any files uploaded to the BaNaNaS...
Can you point me to the detailed abuse contact information for Simuscape, just in case I ever have an unfortunate need for it?

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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by wallyweb »

Michi_cc wrote:
SAC wrote:Well, good thing is that there's now a specific abuse contact information available should anyone find problems with any files uploaded to the BaNaNaS...
Can you point me to the detailed abuse contact information for Simuscape, just in case I ever have an unfortunate need for it?

-- Michael Lutz
As with this forum and most others that I have visited, Simuscape uses the "!" button on every post providing access to a page for reporting abusive events. There is an FAQ button at the top of every page, even those outside restricted access areas. One of the questions the FAQ addresses is how to report a post.
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by SAC »

Michi_cc wrote:Can you point me to the detailed abuse contact information for Simuscape, just in case I ever have an unfortunate need for it?
As you clearly never intended to ask this question with a tiny bit of substance in it, but more for the fun of it;

16:31 <+michi_cc> andythenorth: Does Simuscape have any abuse contact information, maybe hidden inside the registration wall, or is SAC not doing what she's demanding?
16:32 <andythenorth> it has the PHPBB standard
16:32 <andythenorth> ach
16:32 <andythenorth> it has:
16:32 <andythenorth> - the PHPBB standard ToS
16:32 <andythenorth> - which disclaims any responsibility
16:32 <+michi_cc> (Better check twice or my post is going to be silly)
16:32 <andythenorth> - it has an administrators page
16:33 <+michi_cc> Wants me to register, so doesn't count.
16:33 <andythenorth> - it has a 'welcome center'
16:33 <andythenorth> no there's no information for you without registering afaict
16:34 <+michi_cc> Good ;)


...I'd say, when serious a question like this is probably better placed where it belongs - preferably in the forum it's related to... :rolleyes:
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Re: Copyright-infringing on OpenTTD services (BaNaNaS, wiki,

Post by Xaroth »

wallyweb wrote:
Michi_cc wrote:
SAC wrote:Well, good thing is that there's now a specific abuse contact information available should anyone find problems with any files uploaded to the BaNaNaS...
Can you point me to the detailed abuse contact information for Simuscape, just in case I ever have an unfortunate need for it?

-- Michael Lutz
As with this forum and most others that I have visited, Simuscape uses the "!" button on every post providing access to a page for reporting abusive events. There is an FAQ button at the top of every page, even those outside restricted access areas. One of the questions the FAQ addresses is how to report a post.
Unfortunately, a 'report button' won't suffice for a proper DMCA Takedown Notice, it lacks the ability to provide sufficient proof of the infringing content, plus it forces an unfair barrier (user registration) for those wanting to report infringing content.

@SAC: Though the question remains very well valid.

You come to this forum, and start moaning about how 'bad' OpenTTD apparently does (while several other members have already stated that in their oppinion, they do more than they should)
Now normally, I would write that off as somebody trying to troll, but in your case, it's taking it a step further.

Not only do you complain about others not doing their job (which is an oppinion, one not many share with you), but at the same time you actually manage to do worse yourself... to quote a wonderful book, you are a crow calling a raven black.

The same goes for almost the entire rest of your conversation.. when confronted with critique you simply try to brush it off by focussing on one tiny detail, while completely missing the bigger picture, and only making an arse out of yourself (pardon my french). (For reference: http://xkcd.com/386/ )
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