Rail and the City

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HvS
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Rail and the City

Post by HvS »

Greetings everyone,
Today I'd like to raise the issue of making rail-based transportation inside (large) cities. Or, more precisely, how does one imitate the real-world systems given the conditions of OpenTTD.
As of now, I have devised four types of urban subway-like systems, that is, unless one is fine with blowing up whatever necessary and laying the tracks right on the ground, optionally visually concealing the damage using "subway/city core" tracks from NuTracks.

I assume everything takes place in a generic set of conditions: plain land and grid-based city planning, no signals on bridges and in tunnels.

1. Single tunnel subway: probably, the only advantage is that it fits rather nicely inside a 3x3 square of land, the tunnels being under the bridges. However, its performance is low, and it needs short trains (like diesel Dash-like). E.g. 2CC has some subway cars with capacity of 400-500 passangers, so those could sweeten the pill.
Image
It needs a full 3x3 site plus two adjacent roads are to be converted into bridges.

2. Parallel track subway: is more like normal subway, but to preserve interconnection of city roads, one needs to construct additional bridges.
Image
If the signals are placed on tracks under bridges, it requires 4-6 extra buildings to be demolished for tunnel entrances.

3. Chicago-style elevated: using bridges above city roads, it does not steal space from city buildings, although to construct elevated "piers" with signals between bridges, one needs to demolish 4 buildings (new will be build in their place), and to build a station - additional length*2 buildings. Anyway, all those losses are recoverable, except that the tunnels allow to restore only half of severed road connections.
Image
The disadvantage is that it is one-way only by design and thus has to be built as a loop (minimal width - one block).

4. Dedicated elevated zone: in terms of required demolition, it is no better than building right on the surface. However, it does have an advantage of being naturally isolated from ground traffic, and thus crossing any existing road or rail on the land level is painless and does not require the trains to lose speed due to slopes.
Image

Although I tried to think of any other ways to integrate rails into city fabric with minimal losses, I wasn't able to think of any other options beyond those above. I believe the other players of OpenTTD are likely more experienced and inventive and could share their ideas on the issue.

UPD: Since I apparently did not make it clear enough, let me rephrase the question:
Are there any "better" (in terms of required demolition and achieved performance) construction patterns for a rail-based intra-city public transit system, that actually resemble a real subway?
A a side note, I know about trams, bagic bulldozer, patching the game's source code and suchlike, thank you. The question is about design, not implementation.
Last edited by HvS on 21 Jun 2011 13:35, edited 1 time in total.
Random_Guy_A
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by Random_Guy_A »

I like starting the game a bit earlier so you can lay the foundations, then you can grow the city around the station using fences to stop the city building where you don't want it to.
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Dindingworth Transport, 21st Oct 1855.png
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Dindingworth Transport, 21st Jul 1866.png
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Dindingworth Transport, 17th Aug 1914.png
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Random_Guy_A
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by Random_Guy_A »

finished product
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Dindingworth Transport, 16th May 1994.png
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by DarkhorseCav »

Random_Guy_A what newgrfs are you using? (roads & buildings)
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by HvS »

Random_Guy_A, with all due respect, your screenshots are about a completely different setting. You have a city of 30k people, serviced by a single (central) station, whereas I was talking about cities with population over at least 100k. Thus in your case, railroad takes people to some other places, and I was talking about a transportation system which moves people around a single city, or perhaps an urban agglomeration.
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by Lockwood »

I tried this. Magic bulldozer + money cheat + new game.

I've made about a 3m loss over 14 years(!)

It was nice though having some small cities (2-3k each) all grow up to be 7+k and form one huge urban mass.
The single bore is really bottlenecking, so I've made it into a one way loop, where the stations will act as waiting areas as well. That helped a bit.

Trying the dual bore in another area of the map. I've got 6 trains there, 1 of them turning a profit.

Using UKRS and NuTracks (Medium speed with catenary)
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by 3iff »

HvS

Could you use trams instead of trains?
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by Random_Guy_A »

point noted, I'm sure you could apply the same method to a larger city though but assume your looking for ways to impliment this on a fully grown city in which case the magic bulldozer is the way forward.

PS. I'll post the grfs list later if your interested
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by HvS »

Deepsmeg wrote:I tried this. Magic bulldozer + money cheat + new game.

I've made about a 3m loss over 14 years(!)

It was nice though having some small cities (2-3k each) all grow up to be 7+k and form one huge urban mass.
The single bore is really bottlenecking, so I've made it into a one way loop, where the stations will act as waiting areas as well. That helped a bit.

Trying the dual bore in another area of the map. I've got 6 trains there, 1 of them turning a profit.

Using UKRS and NuTracks (Medium speed with catenary)
I have a city of 1500k with several parallel-track subway lines. I use a patch for signals in tunnels and 2cc trainset there, so the stations are 2x1 and the moving stock is two-car trains of available subway engines. Thus it's not a clean experiments, since I mostly wanted to squeeze the stations into the smallest space possible, which is a 2x3 site for a parallel-track station, including tunnel entrances.
One line gives sheer profit with every train. Its stations are separated by 3 city blocks and it's probably the shortest albeit not short by itself.
The other is 50/50. Its stations are 2 blocks apart inside the city and more (~5) between those several stations that reach out into suburb. This line apparently also has more trains than it should.
There's a circular single-track which is mostly losing money. Also apparently has more trains than necessary. Or probably that is due to the fact that the traffic load is uneven in different areas it serves.
There's a chicago-style L with two-car diesel trains, 4 blocks distance between stations, with a parallel-track subway extention into three suburban satellite towns. Pure profit, albeit small.
Finally, there's an L running moving stock from 2cc and it returns mixed results.
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HvS
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by HvS »

3iff wrote:HvS

Could you use trams instead of trains?
I could do just about anyting if I wanted, including building city public transit system using cruise ships and aqueducts, but that's not the point.
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by HvS »

Random_Guy_A wrote:point noted, I'm sure you could apply the same method to a larger city though but assume your looking for ways to impliment this on a fully grown city in which case the magic bulldozer is the way forward.
You don't have to tell me about the magic bulldozer, since my question is not about "omg how could I possibly build this", but about _what_ should one actually build if one is trying to imitate real-world public transit systems.
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by Lockwood »

HvS wrote:
Deepsmeg wrote:I tried this. Magic bulldozer + money cheat + new game.

I've made about a 3m loss over 14 years(!)

It was nice though having some small cities (2-3k each) all grow up to be 7+k and form one huge urban mass.
The single bore is really bottlenecking, so I've made it into a one way loop, where the stations will act as waiting areas as well. That helped a bit.

Trying the dual bore in another area of the map. I've got 6 trains there, 1 of them turning a profit.

Using UKRS and NuTracks (Medium speed with catenary)
I have a city of 1500k with several parallel-track subway lines. I use a patch for signals in tunnels and 2cc trainset there, so the stations are 2x1 and the moving stock is two-car trains of available subway engines. Thus it's not a clean experiments, since I mostly wanted to squeeze the stations into the smallest space possible, which is a 2x3 site for a parallel-track station, including tunnel entrances.
One line gives sheer profit with every train. Its stations are separated by 3 city blocks and it's probably the shortest albeit not short by itself.
The other is 50/50. Its stations are 2 blocks apart inside the city and more (~5) between those several stations that reach out into suburb. This line apparently also has more trains than it should.
There's a circular single-track which is mostly losing money. Also apparently has more trains than necessary. Or probably that is due to the fact that the traffic load is uneven in different areas it serves.
There's a chicago-style L with two-car diesel trains, 4 blocks distance between stations, with a parallel-track subway extention into three suburban satellite towns. Pure profit, albeit small.
Finally, there's an L running moving stock from 2cc and it returns mixed results.
Ooo. Signals in tunnels.
I've got bottleneck central on mine.

The tram idea sounds good, it'd simulate denser tracks, I suppose.
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by Arie- »

After messing around a bit for an hour options two and three seem most realistic to me. It is indeed hard to design this without removing too much. One design I came up with is shown in the attachment, I didn't bother counting destroyed tiles and do not think it is realistic at all.
Grufield Transport, 2046-07-18.png
(251.17 KiB) Downloaded 1 time
edit: Just came to mind: you can alter the high and the low track to allow for signals on both tracks instead of only one.
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HvS
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by HvS »

Arie- wrote:After messing around a bit for an hour options two and three seem most realistic to me. It is indeed hard to design this without removing too much. One design I came up with is shown in the attachment, I didn't bother counting destroyed tiles and do not think it is realistic at all.
Grufield Transport, 2046-07-18.png
edit: Just came to mind: you can alter the high and the low track to allow for signals on both tracks instead of only one.
Your approach somehow reminded me of this:
Image
An attempt to fit a two-track station and two bypasses in a stripe of 2-square width.
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by Level Crossing »

My strategy involves either trams and one bidirectional line or trains and two parallel, unidirectional lines.
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The trams are visible here. They are under roads to avoid demolishing buildings.
The trams are visible here. They are under roads to avoid demolishing buildings.
Nuburg Transport Part 1-NUB.PNG (309.14 KiB) Viewed 838 times
The trains are visible here. They are under roads to avoid demolishing buildings.
The trains are visible here. They are under roads to avoid demolishing buildings.
Nuburg Transport Part 2-WUN.PNG (275.51 KiB) Viewed 838 times
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by FooBar »

You appear to have signals where those are normally not possible...
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by Level Crossing »

FooBar wrote:You appear to have signals where those are normally not possible...
My fault, I forgot to say that I'm using the signals in tunnels patch.
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by DarkhorseCav »

Random_Guy_A wrote:PS. I'll post the grfs list later if your interested
Yes please.
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by Hysteresis »

i've tried it on a normal scenario [actually, my main network :P] and i've had one problem

within 10 mins of the first train i had 2k passengers at a couple of stations. now it's up to 4k.

cos of the 2x2 grid i'm limited to a TL of 4...

i have magic dozer on. that's all i used. i simply borred my way throug the city :P on another one i constricted so i could build round it, i just opened up the space a little...
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Re: Rail and the City

Post by HvS »

Hysteresis wrote: cos of the 2x2 grid i'm limited to a TL of 4...
You can demolish adjacent 2x2 site and the road in-between, making a site for 2x5 station. Not a big loss, as I see it.
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