Dutch Trainset v2.0

[FooBar]

Wow, I go to work and now this

Yes, the mDDM and NID should be listed with the MUs. That is also consistent with Mat'24.
They are, like Mat'24, not built in one piece like real MUs because there are too many possible combinations, the fact that they're technically not MUs, and the fact that we need the double decker carriage seperately anyways. It's a reflection of real life: these types of trains were designed to be put together and taken apart at will, just like hauled carriages. One should be able to do that in the game as well.
So I will change the sort order for these, but not the way they are built (separate engine and separate wagons). Having them as prebuilt gives a combinatory explosion of entries in the purchase menu. At least 10 for Mat'24 and 9 combined for DDM/DD-AR/NID. Which would just be insane.

steam-diesel-dmu-electric-emu order: there's no particular reason for that other than it looks nicer with the smoke and spark icons in the purchase menu.
The mP's are in the EMU list because they are derived from an EMU counterpart. It wouldn't hurt listing them between the electrics and the EMUs, but that can only be done if the steam-diesel-dmu-electric-emu order isn't changed. I'm not too fond of listing them between electrics and DMUs.

[Voyager One]

I still kind of think that MUs carry passengers (and/or mail and/or baggages in some rare cases), locomotives don't - they pull passenger coaches like ICRs or baggage wagons like the Stalen D. That's the main difference that I think makes the separation clear enough.

I.e. DDAR+1700 isn't a MU because 1700 is a locomotive "per se" and the DDAR was not designed and built for the 1700. DDAR+mDDM should be a MU, they are related in design and build.
Also, IRL, a 1700 can be used to pull freight trains. I hope noone is crazy enough to do it with a mDDM.

The main "question" should be this: "Is the tractive coach carrying passengers?" If yes - it's an MU. If no - it's a locomotive.

[Transportman]

So I will change the sort order for these, but not the way they are built (separate engine and separate wagons). Having them as prebuilt gives a combinatory explosion of entries in the purchase menu. At least 10 for Mat'24 and 9 combined for DDM/DD-AR/NID. Which would just be insane.

Sounds good to me.

steam-diesel-dmu-electric-emu order: there's no particular reason for that other than it looks nicer with the smoke and spark icons in the purchase menu.
The mP's are in the EMU list because they are derived from an EMU counterpart. It wouldn't hurt listing them between the electrics and the EMUs, but that can only be done if the steam-diesel-dmu-electric-emu order isn't changed. I'm not too fond of listing them between electrics and DMUs.

I wasn't complaining about the order, just that I think some vehicles should be moved around a bit in the list. The mP can indeed be between electrics and EMUs.

[FooBar]

The main "question" should be this: "Is the tractive coach carrying passengers?" If yes - it's an MU. If no - it's a locomotive.

Still, the mDDM is a special kind of locomotive. Not a multiple unit. Essentially it's an engine which happens to have a passenger deck on top.

Example: take the first part of any regular MU and try to run it without the rest attached: it will not work. Take an mDDM without anything attached and it will run perfectly fine. I suspect the end doors can even be locked so that one could even use it in passenger service like that. That's why they are the way they are.

[Voyager One]

Take an mDDM without anything attached and it will run perfectly fine

OK, I didn't know this. Point taken.

[Transportman]

The main "question" should be this: "Is the tractive coach carrying passengers?" If yes - it's an MU. If no - it's a locomotive.

Still, the mDDM is a special kind of locomotive. Not a multiple unit. Essentially it's an engine which happens to have a passenger deck on top.

Example: take the first part of any regular MU and try to run it without the rest attached: it will not work. Take an mDDM without anything attached and it will run perfectly fine. I suspect the end doors can even be locked so that one could even use it in passenger service like that. That's why they are the way they are.

It would run perfectly fine (if you disable some safety stuff, otherwise it would stop automatically), but it would look really silly. I also found that with other trains with ICR coaches, they just end suddenly with some closed doors, just feels weird if you see it, while most other trains are MUs that don't have those doors there.

[jor[D]1]

Just Skip to the summary below.

mDDM is a camouflaged loco, or the other way around. It can drive on it's onw easily, often happens when in maintenance.

Point is, mDDM has ONLY been used in MU formation of 1mDDM + 3 DDAR coaches.

However, DDAR has been used in MU formation, but also as Carriages.
1700+4 DDAR carriages is the common MU, formation. These 1700 loco's are adapted and only one cab is functioning. Recognizable by the driver airco only in above cabine and the automatic coupler.
These 1700 ALWAYS drive with DDAR in an MU formation. It are the lower numbered 1700 (till 30 orso).

The other 1700 have two cabin airco units, no automatic coupler and drive with coaches.

Then there is the mess around 2004, when it was possible to have things like this: 1700+5 ICR+DDAR+DDAR (driving trailer in service)

A second thing is the DDM-1, these are very similar to DDAR, but are coaches and operate with 1800 loco's
These DDM-1 drive in set from 6 to 8 carriages, but with the mess of 2004, this could happen: 1800+ICR+ICK+Plan W+ICL+ICR+DDM+ICR+DDM (driving trailer out service)


The problem is Dutch railways hate shunting, and almost glue all locomotives to the rolling stock, taking them only apart when maintenance is needed.
Originally VIRM was also meant to be flexible, and maintained as carriages instead of MU.

I think the DDAR problem is the DDAR<->DDM problem. DDAR, are MU. While DDM-1 are carriages.

Note: DDAR carriages are also called DDM-2 and DDM-3

Overtime the usages also changed making it even more difficult. Eg. DDAR->DDZ rebuild.
DDZ is a real MU, not supposed to be taken apart.

To give some strange examples see links below:
http://flic.kr/p/dF7jUB (1700 + ICR + DDM-1 + ICR driving trailer, those operated in push-pull service)
http://flic.kr/p/bWhHEa (1700 + ICR + DDAR driving trailer, those operated in push-pull service) (noticed the removed auto-coupler on the DDAR)
http://flic.kr/p/cdCRU7 (1600/1700/1800 + Mix of whatever could drive* + DDM-1 + DDM-1 driving trailer, those operated in pull service, so the driving trailer also can be behind the loco)
http://flic.kr/p/bLkEfF (Same as above)
http://flic.kr/p/bkDHmU (DDM-1 at end of train)

There have been combinations of: DDM-1 driving trailer + DDM-1 + DDM-1 + ICR, ICK & PlanW + DDM-1 modified lower floor for bicycles. Those were pulled by a loco at one of the ends. Driving trailer used as normal carriage.

*Mix: even some Plan W were pulled back from the museum.

Have a look at this page for many more: http://www.flickr.com/groups/gemengdege ... inen/pool/

Can't leave to skip the best one:
http://flic.kr/p/a4xk2V
Red 1800+Whatever could drive, including some NMBS K4

Maybe a long story, Summary:
DDAR:
mDDM, only with 3 DDAR Bilevel coaches. MU
1700+DDAR, only with 4 Bilevel coackes. MU (before mDDM was built also 3 coaches)
DDZ/NID, mDDM + 3 or 5 Bilevel coaches. MU

DDM-1
1600/1800+ DDM-1, varying lengts. (No MU, loco's used in freight duties over night)
1700+7 DDM-1 Bilevel coaches, Since 2011, because 1800 where put aside. Those 1700 have been modified.

Mixes
1600/1700/1800 + Any mix of carriages (including DDM-1)
1700 + ICR + DDAR cabcar
1700 + ICR + DDM-1 + ICR Cabcar

Note: In summer some DDM-1 had the lower floor converted for bicycles, they rode like normal carriages between ICR, Plan W etc.

[Transportman]

And then you forgot the combination in which the NS 1700 would be somewhere in the middle and then two complete sets of DD-AR/mDDM on both sides. I believe this was also a common appearance, but can't find any pictures of it right now.

[jor[D]1]

No, that is just to coupled DDAR trainsets, and by coincidence the two loco's are in the middle.
It is quite common.

Forgot to add this: DDAR and NID/DDZ can drive coupled (like most MU). DDM-1 Can't.
This is just the reason why DDAR should be an MU.

In Belgium they did the loco in the middle and cabcars at both ends. Had to do with ECTS not built in the loco. (M6 cars)

[Mahoo76]

Using Openttd 1.2.3 and DT2.0.0-alpha 7
The Mat'34 Dieseldrie centercarriage is misaligned when travelling from SE to NW

Misalignment

Tenthill Transport, 8th Aug 1935.png (97.17 KiB) Viewed 2463 times

No problems in the other directions.

[FooBar]

Thanks for the report. It is fixed in r661.

[Mahoo76]

Still using OpenTTD 123 & DTS 2.0.0-alpha7.

Misalignment:

Mat '36 EL3/ELDD3

Wenley Transport, 27th Dec 1943.png (39.96 KiB) Viewed 2370 times

With the ICR carriage, I get no control cab (Total train length is 10 tiles, part of the problem?). Same with 1600 loc, NMBS 11 loc or Traxx Loc.

ICR Carriage -> Control Cab

Wenley Transport, 19th May 1989.png (178.88 KiB) Viewed 2370 times

Please make the mDDM/NID a EMU type. When I use it as a loc is just doesn't look right.

mDDM - NID

mDDM-NID.png (64.12 KiB) Viewed 2370 times

[Transportman]

1) I'll try to fix that tomorrow if nobody is earlier (confirmed for both liveries). For now it is under issue 4766.

2) The ICR Cab-control has some year-dependency stuff in it. For the Benelux-livery, the code is:

Code: Select all

switch(FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, switch_coaches_ICR_benelux_cab_availability, build_year) {
    0..1986: spriteset_coaches_ICR_benelux;
    switch_coaches_ICR_benelux_cab_position;

So when build before 1-1-1987 there will be no cab control with the Benelux-livery when selected. It got me fooled with the HiSpeed livery, that one only gives a cab-control when build between 2009 and 2012.

3) Will not be fixed/done, since it would lead to a combinatory explosion in the purchase window, explained here. But I do see a possible misalignment in your shot of the mDDM with coaches, last one seems off, or is that because it is going uphill there?

[Mahoo76]

2) Just checked in game. You're right . Mine was obviously built before '87.
3) I already read the mDDM discussion. As I said before, it just doesn't look good when used as a loc. I propose to just make a selection of het possibilities then. Something like mDDM + 3DDAR & mDDM/NID + 3DDAR & mDDM/NID + 5DDAR.

I think the set doesn't have to be historically complete. Just my 2 cents...

P.S.
3) It's aligned correct. The train is just going uphill, well spotted.

[Transportman]

Got a fix for 1), will upload a .diff soon to the issue I have mentioned earlier, but now it looks like the front engine is misaligned 1px up.

2) I think it would be better if the refit window at leasts indicates when a livery is valid (or not)

3) How do you mean that it doesn't look right? It looks fine to me.

[FooBar]

Please make the mDDM/NID a EMU type. When I use it as a loc is just doesn't look right.

It's up to you to decide if you want to add 20 carriages or just stick to 3 or 4. If it doesn't look right, make it look right

I agree that the set doesn't have to be historically complete, but it should not impose unnecessary restrictions either. Now you can do whatever you damn well please. If NS wanted they could do that as well in real life. If I only give you three different flavours, you can't do that. Either way, as long as I get to say what goes, you're not going to win this one
Don't forget that any change to DD-AR/NID I also have to do for Mat'24. That one works exactly the same and funnily enough I didn't see complaints about that

As for the ICR I have a question for all of you:
Would it be desired if cab controls were automatically added to existing trains once they visit a depot during the period when the cab control is available? Basically the same as how some trains change colour when visiting the depot after a certain year. Let me know, as I suppose that can be arranged.

[Transportman]

Please make the mDDM/NID a EMU type. When I use it as a loc is just doesn't look right.

It's up to you to decide if you want to add 20 carriages or just stick to 3 or 4. If it doesn't look right, make it look right

I agree that the set doesn't have to be historically complete, but it should not impose unnecessary restrictions either. Now you can do whatever you damn well please. If NS wanted they could do that as well in real life. If I only give you three different flavours, you can't do that. Either way, as long as I get to say what goes, you're not going to win this one
Don't forget that any change to DD-AR/NID I also have to do for Mat'24. That one works exactly the same and funnily enough I didn't see complaints about that

I think the Mat'24 is less known, since it is quite some time ago that it ran on the tracks as regular service. Maybe a solution would be to set TRAIN_FLAG_FLIP for the mDDM/NID/Mat'24 engines? Then it would be possible to flip it somewhere in the middle, allowing the placement of an engine in between/at the end without making it look weird.

As for the ICR I have a question for all of you:
Would it be desired if cab controls were automatically added to existing trains once they visit a depot during the period when the cab control is available? Basically the same as how some trains change colour when visiting the depot after a certain year. Let me know, as I suppose that can be arranged.

So basically give the same behavior as when the cab control livery is selected and the build year is in the right range? I think it doesn't really matter, although I would like the option to also be able to select the cab control option and also get it even if it isn't available anymore in real life. So for example the Hispeed livery with cab control even with build years 2013 and later.

Owh, and I uploaded the .diff for that gap with the Mat'36 to issue 4766.

[jor[D]1]

Adding flip would mean you need extra sprites, because the lights.

Or just make the code in such a way a Cabcar is added if a mDDM or 1700 loco is placed behind a DDAR trainset.
Then you could also make DDAR drive in multiple.
No Cabcar if 1800, because 1800+DDAR+1800 would be somehow realistic.

However, I also miss that option on the diesels like 2200, which drove backwards very often.

It's time to make working cabcars.

[FooBar]

This flipping and intermediate cab car are nice suggestions, which I would like to include. I've registered them as issues on the devzone.

[Mahoo76]

Don't forget that any change to DD-AR/NID I also have to do for Mat'24. That one works exactly the same and funnily enough I didn't see complaints about that

I know I'm getting older, but I've never seen a Mat '24 IRL.
I did see a lot of mDDM's in my time, and they were never 10 cars long. That's what I mean when I say it doesn't look right.

This flipping and intermediate cab car are nice suggestions, which I would like to include.

If this make it look like seperate consists, I'm a very happy man. Come to think of it, in DTS V1 it was coded this way.

Either way, as long as I get to say what goes, you're not going to win this one.

I'm very grateful you (and a lot of others) are putting so much effort in this set. Just trying to get you in the direction.