FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

[Kogut]

Main problem is with early yers, it is very hard to keep high station ratings. And also 8 tonnes production is almost bad as no industry.

[andythenorth]

Main problem is with early yers, it is very hard to keep high station ratings. And also 8 tonnes production is almost bad as no industry.

Current FIRS code doesn't pay attention to station rating, it's just an n% chance of decrease every month if there are no supplies delivered. In my test game, after 35 years, this leads to farm production about 8t and mines about 50t on average.

Low production is sort of annoying and sort of fun I'm playing with UKRS and eGRVTS. I can use all the small engines that are normally of no use, and just a few trucks are enough for each farm.

The game *will* still use rating to affect amount of cargo distributed though.

[Kogut]

So I am happy that it is fixed [in my test AI game 2.00 FIRS closed almost all industries in 1970 (game started in 1830)]

[Kogut]

I have 20027 trunk and my openttd is not recognizing firs nightlies an newgrf (I extracted it). What is wrong?

[NekoMaster]

I have 20027 trunk and my openttd is not recognizing firs nightlies an newgrf (I extracted it). What is wrong?

are you sure its in the data folder?

[andythenorth]

Reply to some questions about FIRS cargos asked in Canadian thread:

So, I noticed. Are they now set in concrete ?

They are 'more' final - after a year of play testing I've figured out which ones are good and which ones sucked. There may still be mistakes found, or class changes to maximise vehicle set compatibility.

Likely changes:

1. I have a doubt around Lumber. We defined it as 'wood products' (ECS) to avoid duplication for set authors. But wood products conceptually includes chips and saw dust, so includes 'bulk'. This leads to wagons such as covered hoppers being refittable to Lumber in some sets. In FIRS that looks strange. Not sure what will happen there:
- live with it
- new cargo label for Lumber
- define FIRS wood product classes differently to ECS classes

2. 'Bonus' cargos only available in one FIRS 'economy'. Phosphate / Nitrate is a likely example. There are 3 or 4 reserved slots to allow for such cargos. I would be happy to see minimal vehicle set support for these via classes.

3. Sugar is currently missing and may reappear. It may be 'Cane' in tropic and 'Beet' in other climates. Although industry production / acceptance will be identical, the vehicles used for each cargo are very different, so a different label may be used.

Also, that list of cargo types does not show in which climate(s) they are used.

Nearly every cargo is present in all climates.
- Water is tropic only.
- note on Sugar above

Canonical list is in the repo here: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fir ... argos.list
That file is used to generate the nfo for cargo definitions.

[Kogut]

I have 20027 trunk and my openttd is not recognizing firs nightlies an newgrf (I extracted it). What is wrong?

are you sure its in the data folder?

yes

[andythenorth]

I have 20027 trunk and my openttd is not recognizing firs nightlies an newgrf (I extracted it). What is wrong?

Try this one. Works for me with r19994

[Kogut]

OK, It nightly replaced 2.0 and it was not visible in inactive section (in old newgrf window also active files were visible)

[zhargon]

I haven't played OTTD for a while,
...
I wrote some comments, only to find that 0.2 was released on Friday - so some stuff may not be applicable, so I'll have a quick play before I send this and add .....
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On looking at the forums the First thing I saw was FIRS, so having downloaded the RC1 & new sound & graphics I loaded my old grfs & FIRS & started playing. I start in 1590 with Tudor houses & farms with transport to match, 1024x1024, temperate, 40 towns and no industries ie Towns start as self-sufficient..
All went well until a Dairy appeared, and I noted that a "Gen Store" (Why not "Shop"? -(or Shoppe for me!!) was available - I then discovered that the Shop didn't take milk (nor seemingly did anything else, and the same for livestock.

Looking at .http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries, it appears that a dairy only appears in 1892 and livestock had to go to a 'meatpacker' in around 1867. Since the meat would probably go off waiting around in a wagon for 250 years, I decided to stop the game, & look at the schema - I couldn't find any network diagram (?), so I did a quick visio of it.

Very few people would wade through the 80 pages of the development thread, the 1st entry of which was last edited in July 2009, and the summary on the TT-foundry page doesn't give much away!! It would be useful if the philosophy and current position of the set was on a page linked from the schema one, which would help to see/playtest the set from the designer's perspective.

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Please just see the following as comments from someone new to FIRS (particularly at 0.1(now 0.2) and in flux) - with no pre-conceived ideas, other than my own proclivities. Comments on the schema & a couple of quick games using 0.1 & 0.2 - no doubt things mentioned before, but just in case:

Is having the Store/Shop / Petrol Garage the best approach - as the industry algorythm (if still as I think it was) will tend to produce many of those over the longer term, to the detriment of the out-of-town industries (particularly when using the multiple industries switch). Could you not use a supplementary house set, to give you the effect you require - rather than micromanage the retail bits?

The Farm/Engineering/Manufacturing supplies idea - I'd prefer something more specific where warranted, but I presume the reason for them is to generate more flow, but it seems a little clumsy if a named cargo could be used instead.

The Machine shop produces FmS & ES - could it not start a bit earlier and produce Cans - which would go to the Meat Packer?

Some of that wood/lumber could go to the coal mine rather than the 'ES'. Certainly old pokey mines used a lot of wood.

Do both the Metal Foundary & Blacksmith need a fuel source such as coal or wood?

Anomalies
0 Coal Mine Produces coal
1843 Steel Mill accepts coal
1881 Power station Accepts coal
1902 Cement plant accepts coal
-------------
0 Iron Ore mine produces Iron Ore
1843 The Steel Mill accepts Iron Ore
------
1762 The Metal Foundary accepts Steel and Aluminium
1842 The Machine shop accepts Steel & Aluminium and Fuel Oil
BUT
1843 The Steel Mill produces Steel
1884 The Refinery produces Fuel Oil
1923 The Aluminium Plant Produces Aluminium

Why not a Smelter/Blast furnace where the coal & iron ore (& scrap) can go to produce pig iron - which then goes to the Bessemer Convertor where the steel is made. Even better would be to have the coal going to a Coke oven - the coke then goes to the Smelter (with iron ore & gravel) (forget the scrap). The hydrocarbons from the coking process go to the Plastics Plant. - see 5 years living near Scunthorpe wasn't wasted after all!

A smelter could also produce wrought iron for the blacksmith to make goods from, using coke fuel.

Coke could go to the Glass works to provide the heat to melt the sand.

Presuming the gravel instance is limestone and goes to the Cement Plant fine(or via a Kiln to make the lime), but there seems no reason for sand to go to the cement works.

A junk yard? Producing scrap metal from manufactured "engineering supplies", which are also used in mines, quarries, forests etc etc ... sorry, I can't get my head round that one ... ((Lumber yard to Junk yard = scrap metal ?? A version of the philosophers' stone maybe.)).. nice graphics though, for an open cast iron ore mine.

Why not just have the Fertilizer plant produce Fertilizer and have oil and coal as inputs?

The Shop could sell milk as well as Goods & food. (Alternatively Milk & 'drink' could be delivered to a Pub in a house set)! and the system does generate a lot of those shops - 2 towns of 600 or so population had 3 each.

It depends upon definitions, but shouldn't the Petrol Garage(Gas Station) sell petrol/gas only, rather than being another outlet for food/goods. - fuel oil being something different of course ie the Oil refinery could produce petrol & fuel oil... petrol to the garage, and fuel oil to industry.

Could Crude Oil be called Crude Oil?
The oil platform could have a steel input

Papermill ?
The furniture factory could take livestock direct, (tannery?)

There are lots of Farms - all of which seem to need farm supplies (fertilizers) for some reason.
1) Traditional dairy farms don't need it, ((and dead sheep were only fed to beef cattle!!)) - I don't know what the role of the separate dairy is - of course it could take in Fruit to make food(yogourt)

2) Arable Farm - Grain could also go to the animal farm.

3) Fruit Plantation - would 'Fruit Farm' or 'Orchard' be better?

4) Mixed Farm - a Farm Too Far?? - having said that, I do like the graphics

5) Sheep farm - doesn't need any input

----
0 Grain, Milk, Livestock, Wool, and Fruit & Veg are produced
1640 Brewery accepts Grain & F&V
1762 Textile Mill accepts Wool
1836 Bakery Accepts Grain
1867 Meat packer accepts Livestock
1892 Dairy Accepts Milk

Like the Blacksmith, the Wholesale Market (in the Town?) may make for a more playable version (0.3?)


Finally I noticed that the first 'Gas Station' appeared in 1590, rather than in 1909 - which, I presume was for the benefit of playtesting. Although it does seem that the schema may need adjusting, it would be useful if most of the industries already 'done' could be set to start at 0 to check playability. The dates could then be re-inserted as each particular network was nearing completion... .or has that already been done?

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Oh & re the comment above, the low production is fine for strings of horse drawn transport

[Ogre]

...Can't say when that will be though ...

What a pity

The parameters sound quite good, especially parameter 3 could prevent those water filled sand pits from appearing on mountains.

Besides, on your project's page, there is a dredging site, a gravel pit and a sand pit. Well I thougt that open pit mines, such as iron ore mines could also provide gravel and / or sand, since the excavation process not only generates usable cargo (here: iron ore). How about that as a replacement for the dredging site? How about to add this to other mines?

Finally, anything new about the waste chain? Will it be implemented?

Again, great work!

[Kogut]

Finally, anything new about the waste chain? Will it be implemented?

It is implemented, but removed.

The Machine shop produces FmS & ES - could it not start a bit earlier and produce Cans - which would go to the Meat Packer?

Main reason to have machine shop is production of x supplies.

Why not a Smelter/Blast furnace where the coal & iron ore (& scrap) can go to produce pig iron - which then goes to the Bessemer Convertor where the steel is made. Even better would be to have the coal going to a Coke oven - the coke then goes to the Smelter (with iron ore & gravel) (forget the scrap). The hydrocarbons from the coking process go to the Plastics Plant. - see 5 years living near Scunthorpe wasn't wasted after all!

There is limit for number of cargos, already reached by FIRS.

The Shop could sell milk as well as Goods & food. (Alternatively Milk & 'drink' could be delivered to a Pub in a house set)! and the system does generate a lot of those shops - 2 towns of 600 or so population had 3 each.

Good idea, but there is also limit of industries.

Could Crude Oil be called Crude Oil?

Good idea

The oil platform could have a steel input

Why?

[andythenorth]

I wrote some comments

It's good and useful feedback. I'm trying to avoid a nitpick reply, but there's quite a lot of stuff

The Farm/Engineering/Manufacturing supplies idea - I'd prefer something more specific where warranted, but I presume the reason for them is to generate more flow, but it seems a little clumsy if a named cargo could be used instead.

They're conceptual cargos, same as 'goods' in original TTD. A lot of FIRS features are inspired by original TTD.

The Machine shop produces FmS & ES - could it not start a bit earlier and produce Cans - which would go to the Meat Packer?

They're manufacturing supplies and are produced by the Metal Foundry

Some of that wood/lumber could go to the coal mine rather than the 'ES'. Certainly old pokey mines used a lot of wood.

FIRS 0.2 contains Lumber Yard producing engineering supplies -covers this.

Do both the Metal Foundary & Blacksmith need a fuel source such as coal or wood?

Blacksmith will likely accept coal (or maybe wood). Foundry doesn't. It won't add much to gameplay.

Anomalies
0 Coal Mine Produces coal
0 Iron Ore mine produces Iron Ore

Blacksmith isn't coded yet. Will produce steel from coal and iron ore. Really it's an early and small forge or foundry, and should be renamed.

Presuming the gravel instance is limestone and goes to the Cement Plant fine(or via a Kiln to make the lime), but there seems no reason for sand to go to the cement works.

Can't remember why it was chosen to be sand (clay would arguably be more accurate). It works fine for gameplay. If it bothers you, then perhaps it's also producing ready-mixed concrete or concrete castings

A junk yard? Producing scrap metal from manufactured "engineering supplies"

Supplies for that one are machinery. New / repaired / maintained - loaders, crushers etc.

Could Crude Oil be called Crude Oil?

Yes, but it probably won't be. Think it's been discussed before - it was oil in TTD so it remains oil here.

There are lots of Farms - all of which seem to need farm supplies (fertilizers) for some reason.

Farm supplies are also machinery - tractors, etc.

0 Grain, Milk, Livestock, Wool, and Fruit & Veg are produced

Awaiting wholesale market

Finally I noticed that the first 'Gas Station' appeared in 1590, rather than in 1909 - which, I presume was for the benefit of playtesting.

Mistake. Now fixed.

[OzTrans]

Canonical list is in the repo ...

That works for me.

... define FIRS wood product classes differently to ECS classes ...

I don't really bother about cargo classes, as the use of them can give mixed and strange results. I only use cargo lables and so far I can cater for up to 38 to 40 labels per climate per major industry set.

... I have a doubt around Lumber. We defined it as 'wood products' (ECS) ...

You could name and define it as wood products. If a saw mill produces wood products, it is then left to the imagination of players whether they see it as lumber and use a flat bed to transport it, or see it as wood chips and use a hopper car. BTW, both cars are available in CanSet/CanRail and transport wood products with ECS.

[NekoMaster]

For the problem about sand and gravel being accepted at a cement plant, maybe the cement plant should be a Concrete Mill, since sand and gravel would apply more to concrete. As for coal, I have no clue why thats accepted :\

[supermop]

As for coal, I have no clue why thats accepted :\

I guess theoretically you could use coal as aggregate, although it doesnt seem ike a very good idea.

[YukonRob]

I'm guessing the coal fires the kilns (to bake the limestone).

[Bob_Mackenzie]

Quote:
Could Crude Oil be called Crude Oil?

Yes, but it probably won't be. Think it's been discussed before - it was oil in TTD so it remains oil here.

In that case can Fuel oil be petrol? Or petrol products?

I find Oil and Fuel Oil confusing sometimes and have, on occasion, applied the wrong refit to my tankers

Oh and surely the gas station is really a petrol station

Cheers

Bob

[supermop]

Except, "petrol" is only commonly understood to mean Gasolene is some parts of the anglosphere. As it is short for "petroleum", that would be even less clear - if anything "petroleum" should be used for the TT cargo "oil". I think it is best to think of Fuel oil as a range of petroleum derived fuels; kerosene, diesel, JP-5, bunker oil, heating oil, etc, not just Gasolene/Octane.

If you think "Gas station" sounds too Americanized, perhaps Filling station, Gasolene Station, Service Station (confusing re: abortive depot projects), Fuel Station, or Garage would be more palatable


Speaking of which (somewhat outside scope of firs), it would be interesting if certain tiles of airports, say the hangar, could accept 1/8 fuel. Would only be functional if the airport could somehow pay less than a gas station would for the fuel, as if it is the player's airport you would essentially be printing money. Even less attainable than this: player receives no payment, or negative payment for fuel delivered to ther own facilities, but all aircraft stopping at the airport, or within a certain radius, receive a discount to their running costs. Special depot tiles for coal and diesel could do the same for trains. The main problem, aside from the fact it probably is not possible, is that if delivering fuel to a competitor forces them to pay for it, you could bankrupt them by delivering massive amounts of fuel. If it does not, you would end up forcing people to arrange complicated reciprocal delivery systems.

Anyway, sorry for going off topic there,

Best,

[zhargon]

Thanks for your response, I'll keep this shorter

it was oil in TTD so it remains oil here.

Having {now} had a quick look at the .nfo, 'Crude Oil' is more work, Fuel Oil to Petrol was a simple text change
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Philosophy and current position of the set - is there a link please?
Ditto a network diagram?

Attached a png of the network - I prefer looking at a pretty structure to pretty pictures(!) to see what is going on. I've cleared a lot of 'clutter', but left my 'blue thoughts' as they were - warts & all so-to-speak.
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The dependence upon the 'conceptual cargoes' for enhanced(or full) production is obvious, and probably fine if one plays the game by building industries all over the place. In my view, not so interesting since I prefer the challenge of playing industries as and when they appear (and disappear), but so be it..

FIRS 0.2 contains Lumber Yard producing engineering supplies -covers this.

not really - before the metal supports came in, pit props would be obtained direct from felled trees ie logs to a length, or sawmill to the mine.
The only point of the lumber yard is to produce "ES" in 1780, from the output of a forest, so the ES can go back to the forest (and elsewhere)- not really a 1780's way of doing things - surely lumber / processed wood, could fulfill that 'enhancement' function, giving you another industry slot to play with ?
--

Awaiting wholesale market

In addition to the Wholesale Market, there do seem to be a number of "industries" in a town (in place & planned) which do much the same thing
General Store FOOD GOOD ===
Supermarket FOOD GOOD ===
Retail Market FOOD GOOD ===
Supermarket FOOD GOOD ===

--
A couple of other thoughts for you ..
The early Forest could produce coal (ie the original Charcoal) - as time moves on the Colliery (current deep Coal mine) could appear and the forest revert to just Lumber/Wood/Timber/Logs etclwhatever production

Water - though not in temperate, could represent "Mineral" water from the heart of TTD country!.