Narrow Gauge vehicle sizing [Poll added 03/04/13]

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Which EIW carriages look better? (See page two)

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4
44%
Small (image 2)
5
56%
 
Total votes: 9

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Narrow Gauge vehicle sizing [Poll added 03/04/13]

Post by SwissFan91 »

Following the discussions about whether vehicles need to be drawn smaller for NG rails, here is a mock-up*:
Full mock up flat.png
Full mock up flat.png (5.2 KiB) Viewed 4853 times
I personally think this looks fine. What are people's thoughts?


*Please do not comment on the alignment or on the liveries. This is a mock-up solely for the comparison of the size of the train compared to the rails. Feel free to comment on how the actual sprites look as that is always helpful! :)
Last edited by SwissFan91 on 03 Apr 2013 19:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: DACH Set: "TARS-Trains" v0.3.0 (new version released)

Post by Snail »

Hmm...

I still think those RhB coaches are a bit too tall, and especially wide, for NG rolling stock.
Of course, the important thing is to see how they compare with the SG part of your set. Still, I think those coaches look a bit "toyish", i.e. very tall and wide w.r.t. their length. Especially the roof in the diagonal views looks huge.

Here is a quick comparison with one of my NG bogie-mounted coaches (don't mind the flashy colors, it gets recolored in the game via code):
screen ng proportions 0.png
screen ng proportions 0.png (1.3 KiB) Viewed 4832 times
What I wanted to achieve there was something that would be proportioned in its size and would give the idea of a slightly long wagon that was a bit narrower than usual. (It's modeled after this.)

This is a example of how some NG trains of mine look. The scale is smaller than their SG counterparts, but I think they give a good idea of proportion.
screen ng sizes.png
screen ng sizes.png (7.97 KiB) Viewed 4832 times
I like the size of your blue shunter much better. Perhaps you could try to model your coaches keeping the same height and width? Or just slightly larger.

Hope this helps
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Re: DACH Set: "TARS-Trains" v0.3.0 (new version released)

Post by oberhümer »

I'd say it's best to err on the side of accuracy when it comes to scale, which usually means narrower and longer. (Think of a snail in its natural state :P )
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Re: DACH Set: "TARS-Trains" v0.3.0 (new version released)

Post by Eddi »

Not entirely fitting the DACH theme, but here is a real-world size comparison between a (regauged) standard-gauge engine and a narrow-gauge wagon
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Re: DACH Set: "TARS-Trains" v0.3.0 (new version released)

Post by hargs »

Of course if you wanted to get completely ridiculous....
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Re: DACH Set: "TARS-Trains" v0.3.0 (new version released)

Post by Voyager One »

From some "first glance" research, I've found one of the NG locomotives in the NG list that is also made in SG - He 2/2 of the Rigibahn is SG while identical He 2/2s of GGB and BOB-SPB are NG.

I've also compared heights and widths of some more modern NG and SG locomotives (I.e. HGe 4/4 II, GE 4/4 III, and TRAXX as two very similar in shape) and they do not differ much. Then, I've found pictures of those same NG and SG locomotives with their respective (standard) passenger coaches and compared their dimensions too and they also seem very alike.


So, same outer dimensions, different gauge... and I'm pretty sure these aren't the only examples in the world. :P


My penny... to keep same dimension.
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Re: DACH Set: "TARS-Trains" v0.3.0 (new version released)

Post by Snail »

Voyager One wrote:So, same outer dimensions, different gauge... and I'm pretty sure these aren't the only examples in the world. :P
Well, let the facts speak. If we compare Swiss NG and SG locos of the same era, we get:

1950s
SBB Re 4/4 I : width = 2.95m (source);
RhB Ge 4/4 I : width = 2.65m (source);

1990s
SBB Re 460 : width = 3m (source);
RhB Ge 4/4 III : width = 2.8m (source).

So, SG locos were on average about 10% wider.

While it might make sense to draw them 8 pixels wide on the vertical views (although I disagree), I think the diagonal views should be a bit narrower than their SG counterparts. Perhaps even just "half a pixel", i.e. sliding the roofline horizontally towards the "inside" by 1 pixel with respect to the SG sizes.

Also, you could have slightly different sizes for different vehicles within the NG space. I'm also doing this in the French set.

Bottom line is, those trains *are* slightly narrower than their SG counterparts, albeit not by much. It's up to us to model this in the game :p
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Re: DACH Set: "TARS-Trains" v0.3.0 (new version released)

Post by Voyager One »

Well, IM(Very Humble and Unimportant)O, 20-30 IRL centimeters isn't really representable in OTTD scale... I don't know...

Also, I agree with Snail that some (mostly older) coaches MUST be lower in height than usual. Instead of 7px height, I'd suggest a 6px height, that 1px will make enough difference to be clearly seen in OTTD scale. IIRC, I've drawn some very old 1800s-1920s coaches for the (standard gauge) Dutch Trainset with a 6px height and they look much better and "older"-stylish.

In any case, the bottom line is that I will certainly respect the majority decision and I will adjust my sprites accordingly.
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Re: DACH Set: "TARS-Trains" v0.3.0 (new version released)

Post by michael blunck »

[on dimensions]

The general idea is that NG stock should look "smaller" than SG stock, although we can´t achieve true proportionality. It´s just the idea which should get transported.


Being on this, we also should take a look on graphical representation of the diverse track gauges. Unlike rail type labels, where we achieved some form of "agreement" on track class specifications, something like this for graphical representation of tracks is still missing. A fact which should get more attention with even more rail sets entering the scene.

I´ve discussed this already many months ago with Snail and dandan for our train/track sets (French NG/SG Sets, DB Set, Japan Set), and the conclusion was to discard the original TTD track gauge for SG, simply because it´s out of proportion w/r to vehicle dimensions.

The main idea was to use original TTD gauge (9px) for broad gauge, 7px for standard gauge, 5px for narrow-gauge (whatever special gauge that might be), and 3px for any sort of "Feldbahn/Decauville" (any very narrow NG, ~600mm, mainly used for agricultural, forestry, or industrial railwways, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feldbahn).

Unfortunately, these ideas didn´t make it into any finished set yet but we should keep an eye on it when donating more engagement into NG stuff, both vehicles and track sets.

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Re: DACH Set: "TARS-Trains" v0.3.0 (new version released)

Post by Voyager One »

Michael, may I ask you for a very blunt and direct answer: how would you draw these NG sprites - standard 8px width or narrow 6px? I'd really appreciate your "vote".
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Re: DACH Set: "TARS-Trains" v0.3.0 (new version released)

Post by hargs »

Unless you’re going to a very small size with your narrow gauge track, I don’t think I’d recommend 6px width really.

Even at 2px between rails, this train looks comparatively narrow.
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Re: DACH Set: "TARS-Trains" v0.3.0 (new version released)

Post by Snail »

As I said, the correct size to keep proportions right would be 7px. But that's not feasible.
Our job here is to make NG trains look approximately 10% narrower than their SG counterparts. The ways to achieve this, as I see it, are:

* Make the vertical sprites 20% narrower (=6px)
* Keep them 8px wide, and play with the shading effects so that the final effect will be that of somewhat smaller vehicles.

If we just keep the same proportions *and* shading style, then we'll have NG trains that look just like SG rolling stock, and this IMO takes away one of the narrow gauges' trains reason-to-be in a TTD set (i.e. added variety).

I'm not trying to impose a standard here, but to suggest possible ways. Hargs' point is well taken, and as MB said, probably the whole concept of track gauge in TTD needs to be thought about and redefined.
In the picture below, you can see that 6px is a viable choice that still allow us to add a nice amount of detailing. My tracks in the picture are temporary, I'm planning to play with their shading a bit more, to make them look narrower than the trains that are running on them.
X74500 (2.58m wide) and BB400 with freight train
X74500 (2.58m wide) and BB400 with freight train
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Re: DACH Set: "TARS-Trains" v0.3.0 (new version released)

Post by hargs »

TBH looking at them side by side I find myself less sure.

In the end I think it comes down to how narrow the loading gauge is for your narrow gauge trains. In the screenshot below the train on the left is Japanese which are effectively standard gauge trains running on narrow gauge track. But as Snail pointed out if you want narrow gauge trains to have an oblivious graphical difference 6px could be the way to do it.
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Re: DACH Set: "TARS-Trains" v0.3.0 (new version released)

Post by AndersI »

I'd like to put some more fuel to the fire here :wink:

The obvious visual aspect of NG in real life is the fact that the train is much wider than the rail. In fact, it looks like the train could tip off the rail in any curve, almost 50% of the train is outside the rails...

That is not at all present in snail's suggestion above.

(But at the same time, the NG train has almost 20% less width compared to the SG counterpart, but as you don't see them together, it is the wide overhang which is the visual mark)

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Re: DACH Set: "TARS-Trains" v0.3.0 (new version released)

Post by Snail »

AndersI wrote: The obvious visual aspect of NG in real life is the fact that the train is much wider than the rail. In fact, it looks like the train could tip off the rail in any curve, almost 50% of the train is outside the rails...

That is not at all present in snail's suggestion above.
Agreed. But as I said, I think the way to solve this is to act on the rails, not on the train. ;)

Here's an image of a station (Tulle) having tracksof both gauges, side-by-side. You can see an NG Billard A80D on the left, and an SG ABJ railcar of the same era on the right. Should we really keep the same sizes for both? :shock:
Tulle station, NG Billard A80D and SG Renault ABJ railcars
Tulle station, NG Billard A80D and SG Renault ABJ railcars
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Re: DACH Set: "TARS-Trains" v0.3.0 (new version released)

Post by Eddi »

michael blunck wrote:[on dimensions]

The main idea was to use original TTD gauge (9px) for broad gauge, 7px for standard gauge, 5px for narrow-gauge (whatever special gauge that might be), and 3px for any sort of "Feldbahn/Decauville" (any very narrow NG, ~600mm, mainly used for agricultural, forestry, or industrial railwways, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feldbahn).
do you have pictures here what you mean? how would odd-pixel-gauges look combined with even-pixel-wide vehicles?
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Re: DACH Set: "TARS-Trains" v0.3.0 (new version released)

Post by michael blunck »

[OT]

Ah! Very nice pictures from Anders and Snail.

@moderators, I think we should move this important NG dimensioning discussion to its own thread, else we won´t find it again in the future.

@Eddi
The pixel value I was mentioning is just an arbitrary count between the two rails in x- and y-direction, with original TTD tracks having 9px distance between its rails (in 2 columns). O/c, in vertical direction, there´s a 4px displacement. I can post a sketch later. (Provided that this discussion has been moved into its own thread. :cool: )

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Re: DACH Set: "TARS-Trains" v0.3.0 (new version released)

Post by PikkaBird »

michael blunck wrote:@moderators, I think we should move this important NG dimensioning discussion to its own thread, else we won´t find it again in the future.
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Re: DACH Set: narrow gauge sizing

Post by jor[D]1 »

The size of the trains depends more on the track layout then gauge.

The Harzer schmalspurbahnen have a loading gauge as big (or even a bit bigger) as SG. They drive SG wagons on trolly's over the NG. Also there are a few regauged SG trains.
The maximum width has more to do with the track layout. A longer car needs to be narrower to be able to make corners safely, while a short car can be winder.
On a NG railway with a big loading gauge you will find bigger trains. (sometimes almost as big as SG).

In SG railways there is exactly the same problem, British trains are narrower than European ones, then American ones. This is only due to loading gauge.

I think it's just not possible to define a rule of thumb for vehicle width in TTD, other then "just make it look good."
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Re: DACH Set: narrow gauge sizing

Post by michael blunck »

jor[D]1 wrote: The size of the trains depends more on the track layout then gauge. [...]
Well, loading gauge for NG is "generally" smaller than for SG or BG. But there might be exceptions.
wikipedia wrote: Narrow gauge railways generally have smaller a loading gauge than standard gauge ones [...]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loading_gauge#Narrow_gauge
jor[D]1 wrote: I think it's just not possible to define a rule of thumb for vehicle width in TTD, other then "just make it look good."
As I said:
mb wrote: The general idea is that NG stock should look "smaller" than SG stock, although we can´t achieve true proportionality. It´s just the idea which should get transported.
This might not be "realistic" (RL) for all cases (e.g. British vs UIC loading gauge), but it should work in the context of the game.

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