[OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by Snail »

Well, right before Michael wrote, I was thinking about another possible scheme, so I'll put in here now: :p

Code: Select all

Gauge	Speed	Axle wt	Electrification
B		 A		 A		   N
S		 B		 B		   E
N		 R		 C		   3
				    D	
				    E	

Label	Comments                                      (FRSet definitions: t   kmh  y	)
SAAN	"Very light", unelectrified (starter track)    (                   13  70   1840 )
SABN	"Light", max speed A, unelectrified            (                   15  100  1840 )
SABE	"Light", max speed A, catenary                 (                   15  100  1840 )
SAB3	"Light", max speed A, 3rd rail                 (                   15  100  1840 )
SBBN	"Light", max speed B, unelectrified			
SBBE	"Light", max speed B, catenary				
SBB3	"Light", max speed B, 3rd rail				
SACN	"Medium", max speed A, unelectrified           (                   18  130  1890 )
SACE	"Medium", max speed A, catenary                (                   18  130  1890 )
SAC3	"Medium", max speed A, 3rd rail                (                   18  130  1890 )
SBCN	"Medium", max speed B, unelectrified			
SBCE	"Medium", max speed B, catenary				
SBC3	"Medium", max speed B, 3rd rail				
SADN	"Heavy", max speed A, unelectrified
SADE	"Heavy", max speed A, catenary
SAD3	"Heavy", max speed A, 3rd rail
SBDN	"Heavy", max speed B, unelectrified
SBDE	"Heavy", max speed B, catenary
SBD3	"Heavy", max speed B, 3rd rail
SAEN	"Very heavy", max speed A, unelectrified        (                   22.5  220  1935 )
SAEE	"Very heavy", max speed A, catenary             (                   22.5  220  1935 )
SBEN	"Very heavy", max speed B, unelectrified		
SBEE	"Very heavy", max speed B, catenary             (                   22.5  360  1975 )
NABN	NG, "light", max speed A, unelectrified         (                   15    80   1881 )
NABE	NG, "light", max speed A, catenary              (                   15    80   1881 )
NAB3	NG, "light", max speed A, 3rd rail              (                   15    80   1881 )
NRBN	NG, "light", rackrail, unelectrified            (                   15    15   1881 )
NRBE	NG, "light", rackrail, catenary                 (                   15    15   1881 )
NBBN	NG, "light", max speed B, unelectrified         (                   15    130  1975 )
NBBE	NG, "light", max speed B, electrified

These might be possible railtypes, together with a description that could be a guideline for trainset creators' to define their track's limits. The numbers at the right are those I have in mind for my French Set.

My thought is that, to ensure the maximum compatibility without pigeonholing vehicle sets' creators, it would be best if this scheme only had loose definitions of max axle weight and speed, rather than defining specific values for weight and speed all the sets will have to comply with. Depending on the variety of rolling stock historically available across the countries, single trainsets might need their own limits in terms of axle weights, speeds, etc. as well as multiple railtypes of the same axle weight supporting different max speeds. "Common sense" should be what makes the sets ultimately compatible.
For instance, what should the max axle weight of a "light" engine be? IMO it should be around 15 or 16t. Perhaps the CETS will define it to 16t, whike the French set will define it to 15t; as long as all the trainsets have these thresholds at comparable levels, there should be no major compatiblity problems.
Same goes with max speed. For instance, some sets might need two types of "light" tracks, a slow and a fast one, while other sets could do with just one with the max speed set in between.

As for compatibility in case someone plays with a trainset and a trackset that support different tracktype labels, we could code the engines so that they're always compatible "upwards", i.e. to heavier tracks of the same gauge and electrification type. So, a "medium" catenary-powered engine should be compatible with SACE, SBCE, SADE, SBDE, SAEE, SBEE. Ideally, if a trainset defines an engine as "SADE" railtype, and it's used in conjunction with a trackset that doesn't support "SADE", then that engine should automatically be compatible and powered on the "SAEE" tracktype (if defined).
But perhaps this is over the top? :p

What do you guys think?
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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by Michi_cc »

Snail wrote:What do you guys think?
I like it. It is specific enough to properly distinguish different engines in a set, but unspecific enough to allow cross-compatibility between sets.

Fixing speed and axle weight to exact values doesn't make sense IMHO because you'll always find a history example that won't fit. With a more loose definition set authors have discretion to select good track classes for good gameplay.

To ensure vehicle compatibility railtype GRFs should for example set all "lesser" track types as compatible/powered. If needed, the proposed alternate label patch could also be used so that a railtype GRF always exposes all defined track classes to vehicle sets while limiting the choices presented to the player. Not sure about that, maybe it would also be enough if vehicle sets install different railtype tables according to which labels are defined.

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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by Eddi »

Michi_cc wrote:
Snail wrote:What do you guys think?
I like it. It is specific enough to properly distinguish different engines in a set, but unspecific enough to allow cross-compatibility between sets.

Fixing speed and axle weight to exact values doesn't make sense IMHO because you'll always find a history example that won't fit. With a more loose definition set authors have discretion to select good track classes for good gameplay.
right, if you see the axle limits as something "freely chosable", you could "compress" the scheme like this:
track_classes3.png
track_classes3.png (87.69 KiB) Viewed 1715 times
this means if ever the french set and CETS are used alongside, you may experience some slightly suboptimal misalignments, but each one in itself will be consistent.
To ensure vehicle compatibility railtype GRFs should for example set all "lesser" track types as compatible/powered. If needed, the proposed alternate label patch could also be used so that a railtype GRF always exposes all defined track classes to vehicle sets while limiting the choices presented to the player. Not sure about that, maybe it would also be enough if vehicle sets install different railtype tables according to which labels are defined.
well the problem is that there is potentially an exponential explosion in the selections of available railtypes for the vehicle set to consider, which must be covered complex action 6/7/9/D, while with an alternative label list this is completely shielded from the vehicle set, and the railtype set has only linear size.
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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by Michi_cc »

Eddi wrote:this means if ever the french set and CETS are used alongside, you may experience some slightly suboptimal misalignments, but each one in itself will be consistent.
Yeah, but I think this is acceptable. The precise track specs aren't really relevant for gameplay anyway (only for historical correctness). If you take the BR 01 and the BR 03 for example, it doesn't matter that one has an axle weight of 20t and the other of 18t. The only relevant thing is that the BR 01 was too heavy for a lot of the older tracks which lead to the development of the BR 03 for the lighter tracks, i.e. it is only important that the BR 01 runs on heavier track than the BR 03, but not on which precise track class.
Eddi wrote:well the problem is that there is potentially an exponential explosion in the selections of available railtypes for the vehicle set to consider, which must be covered complex action 6/7/9/D, while with an alternative label list this is completely shielded from the vehicle set, and the railtype set has only linear size.
We have a patch for that, so we could use if it makes sense.

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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by Snail »

Michi_cc wrote:
Eddi wrote:this means if ever the french set and CETS are used alongside, you may experience some slightly suboptimal misalignments, but each one in itself will be consistent.
Yeah, but I think this is acceptable. The precise track specs aren't really relevant for gameplay anyway (only for historical correctness). If you take the BR 01 and the BR 03 for example, it doesn't matter that one has an axle weight of 20t and the other of 18t. The only relevant thing is that the BR 01 was too heavy for a lot of the older tracks which lead to the development of the BR 03 for the lighter tracks, i.e. it is only important that the BR 01 runs on heavier track than the BR 03, but not on which precise track class.
That's exactly the point. The BR 01 could even be marked as a "heavy"-weight engine, and the BR 03 as a "medium" weight engine. So, if you want to use the BR 01, you'll have to upgrade the tracks to "heavy" ones; otherwise, you'll have to use the BR 03.

The trainsets that want to use this scheme just need to classify the engines by gauge, electrification type and weight (even approximately, if they don't want to go through the research of the exact max axle weight), and the tracksets would do the remaining part, deciding which engines can run where.
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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by michael blunck »

Eddi wrote:
mb wrote: Second letter: speed class
30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 180, 200, 220, 240, 250, 260, 280, 300, 330, 350, 360, >400 km/h -> [A .. Z]
flat out: no. that's insane. you get insane compatibility troubles...
Well, only to please all future railtype set developers. You know, I´m content with only a very small set of railtypes for my own train set (branch line, branch line electrified, main line, main line electrified, high-speed line electrified, everything more is moot). :cool:

Honestly, there are only two options for this "standardisation attempt":

- make a complete unified scheme, taking into account every possible real rail type,
- make small subsets which fit together in a best possible way.

Everything else is just labour in vain.
Eddi wrote: what happened to letters being more intuitive?
it looks like you're heading into a bitmask here
Yeah, that was the idea, because there could be a lot of combinations.
Eddi wrote: track_classes3.png [
You missed rack rail and its electrification possibilities.

regards
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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by NekoMaster »

Why are we making this more complicated then it has to be when Nutracks was fine before. If you want certain speeds just set them your selves in the parameters. For my newgrf presets I have different speeds for Australia, North America, Europe, etc.

I do how ever think we could have a few more rail ypes or something like that but we dont need like a million rail types just to cover every unique network on earth. I think just being about to have different speed rails is good enough.
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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by Eddi »

NekoMaster wrote:Why are we making this more complicated then it has to be
because one man's "complicated" is another man's "interesting".
when Nutracks was fine before.
that's where you're wrong. NuTracks isn't "fine", it's actually rather "boring". especially if you're building a freight network, you get away with using the cheapest and slowest railtype most of the times. that's where axle weight may give another interesting incentive to upgrade rails.
If you want certain speeds just set them your selves in the parameters. For my newgrf presets I have different speeds for Australia, North America, Europe, etc.
really, the whole discussion isn't about speedlimits at all (i said that in the very beginning, but some people don't listen)

the discussion is about three people doing something very similar, and getting them to do it in an interchangeable way.
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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by michael blunck »

Eddi wrote: really, the whole discussion isn't about speedlimits at all (i said that in the very beginning, but some people don't listen) [...]
Just for the record, I only mentioned "speed" because I see it in your tables. Personally, I´d be fine w/o any speed limits.

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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by jvassie »

michael blunck wrote:
Eddi wrote: really, the whole discussion isn't about speedlimits at all (i said that in the very beginning, but some people don't listen) [...]
Just for the record, I only mentioned "speed" because I see it in your tables. Personally, I´d be fine w/o any speed limits.

regards
Michael
Indeed, a much more interesting way of controlling speed would be through a combination of advanced signalling, and lineside markers, or the equivalent. That would obviously require a new feature though and is out of scope of the discussion here.

NekoMaster, it is indeed a very interesting discussion, if you are happy with how it was, you know what's to be said, use that version and be happy, no further need to comment on further developments :)
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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by Michi_cc »

Michi_cc wrote:
Eddi wrote:well the problem is that there is potentially an exponential explosion in the selections of available railtypes for the vehicle set to consider, which must be covered complex action 6/7/9/D, while with an alternative label list this is completely shielded from the vehicle set, and the railtype set has only linear size.
We have a patch for that, so we could use if it makes sense.
http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/index.p ... oldid=2896 and http://vcs.openttd.org/git/?p=openttd/t ... 3484958e30

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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by Transportman »

Apologies if this already has been asked, but is NuTracks going to support infrastructure maintenance costs? Now the costs are the same for all railtypes, only difference is between electrified or not electrified (don't know for 3rd rail or subways). It would make sense to me that high speed rail is more expensive to maintain than low speed rail.
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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by oberhümer »

Let me copy from the release thread:
could, can, will eventually
Until then, here's the incomplete NML source for anyone interested.
Attachments
nutracks.zip
(720.86 KiB) Downloaded 176 times
--- Licenses: GNU LGPL, version 2 or newer, code and graphics. CC-By-SA, graphics, alternatively. If you're using any, I'd like to hear about it --- Call them "track types" ---
--- Mostly inactive developer for: NuTracks - Central European Train Set --- Running/compiling for: Linux (x86) - Android - Windows (32/64 bit) ---

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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by kujichagulia »

Forgive me if this has been commented on already (I did a search but nothing suitable came up). Also, forgive me if this is the wrong place to put this.

I just started playing around with NuTracks today, and I noticed a bug. When "Track Planning" is selected, the cursor arrow completely disappears! When hovering over the terrain, I can see a "preview" of where I am about to lay down my, uh, "track plans." But when I move the mouse over the buttons at the top, the cursor completely disappears, and I have no idea if it is over the button I want to push or not.

I have no such problems when the other NuTracks options - Low Speed Rail Construction, etc. - are selected.

I'm using version 1.2.0-beta4. Let me know if you need any other information.
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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by oberhümer »

A screenshot would be useful, I can't see anything wrong using the very newest nightly. Any sort of bug fix soon is also extremely unlikely.
Attachments
Kenfingford Transport, 1st Feb 20000.png
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--- Licenses: GNU LGPL, version 2 or newer, code and graphics. CC-By-SA, graphics, alternatively. If you're using any, I'd like to hear about it --- Call them "track types" ---
--- Mostly inactive developer for: NuTracks - Central European Train Set --- Running/compiling for: Linux (x86) - Android - Windows (32/64 bit) ---

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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by Transportman »

For those of you who use NuTracks for speed limits on tracks, since r23947 it is possible to set speed limits for travel orders in the timetable window. So download a recent nightly to get this feature (or wait for a stable/testing that includes r23947).
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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by kujichagulia »

oberhümer wrote:A screenshot would be useful, I can't see anything wrong using the very newest nightly. Any sort of bug fix soon is also extremely unlikely.
Here you go. Note the palette at the top; the rail graphics are missing.
Feebourne Transport, 7th Jan 1920.png
Feebourne Transport, 7th Jan 1920.png (159.44 KiB) Viewed 1697 times
EDIT: If there will be no bug fix soon, then I guess I'll just learn how to use NuTracks without Track Planning, as all the other functions work well and Track Planning is not that essential. This NewGRF is very cool, so thanks for your work on this!
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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by oberhümer »

That picture is all wrong - there shouldn't be a speed limit. Which parameter settings are you using?
--- Licenses: GNU LGPL, version 2 or newer, code and graphics. CC-By-SA, graphics, alternatively. If you're using any, I'd like to hear about it --- Call them "track types" ---
--- Mostly inactive developer for: NuTracks - Central European Train Set --- Running/compiling for: Linux (x86) - Android - Windows (32/64 bit) ---

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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by kujichagulia »

I didn't set any parameters when I activated NuTracks. Perhaps it was a conflict with another NewGRF? I've since changed the activated NewGRFs and cleaned out my old games, so unfortunately I couldn't tell you what was activated at the time.

If it helps, I am not using a nightly, just the "vanilla" 1.2.0-beta4 OpenTTD. I also have NuTracks 1.1.2.
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Re: [OpenTTD] NuTracks - Dev Thread

Post by Eddi »

the screenshot metadata contains the active newgrfs... no savegame required :)

it says you have a "ukts_2.1.grf" which i don't know, the rest seems unsuspicious.

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raphics set: OpenGFX (909)
NewGRFs:
F1250005 22BA96792061A81173402D7076AFC04C firs.grf
27711002 3E2A2578101FFB3DD8AFC451CC43C8D0 2cctrainset.grf
44440A01 231A4670430113EB9C5F2F46167D2220 pb_av8w.grf
424B5462 22288D56D1D5B3ACF4AE77069D5FCDDD BKTunw.grf
43415463 637BAB6FD6B33DFBF26D82F2BC50E8B0 CanStnw.grf
414E0101 1446376C4DD0111CA5E7C81B37E8471E fish.grf
45530500 FA231F55E8CC472EA98271F7C2AA9EFF jpstationsw.grf
43414361 D1CF802E67F7207C0E38C3DCB3941374 NACityw.grf
74677462 A2396FFDCC0F1BA37A2A89EF525CDF21 total_bridges.grf
72777473 431E58F4ACA83A2B4E25EEC5FD2E1EEF ukts_2.1.grf
42525300 85CF3A21072391B6877803CC8D3A12AB bros__british_rail_openttd_set-r52bros.grf
43485053 80EB009DC3E2CCD5C2C71DDB9A1CFBC3 chips_station_set-0.6.0chips.grf
52455400 1600687C50C5AB1E72EDD487CAD50E2A coded_by_aegir._artwork_by_aegir-1ae_cityw.grf
FBFB0501 32533DE8356B7D38137770523929DFA3 dutch_road_furniture-0.6.0dutchroadfurniture.grf
FBFB0502 55AE61673CBCDE4A7231DEA85973278C dutch_road_furn._uk_signs_addon-1.0.0dutchroadfurnitureuksignsaddon.grf
FBFB0102 FF36ECFC309CE45F6A340ADE2D3A2FF2 dutch_tram_set-2.0.0dutchtramset.grf
4A430002 EFB21CFA6828362FDA9B2D629B5EEEB4 industrial_stations_renewal-0.8.1indstatr.grf
52571201 C1C7D8C53EB7E74EEE2F0EF29638B466 egrvts.1.0egrvts.grf
4D656F17 8A4F8A04256C90BECF818D134C91C816 long_vehicles-v404oct20084lvw.grf
43415000 C6AE1C574FD881A706AA2B623FB83BC1 climate_dependant_airports-0.3.0airportsplus.grf
4F472B32 809FE326606D15B5E6E5DAF6FD393E2E opengfx_road_vehicles-0.3.1ogfx-rv.grf
4F472B31 4E0B2D42462F295F36AFBA90D239A323 opengfx_trains-0.3.0ogfx-trains.grf
46727806 09E95562B1894A4D55D5532C6A889621 opengfx_trees-0.2.2opengfx+trees.grf
554B524C 934F973D33A42EB858B80031F904F057 UKRoadswSigns.grf
444A5401 70955580042DE6758938EA904A2223CA nutracks-1.1.2nutracks.grf

Companies:
 0: Human
in case you want to know how to get this data:

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exiftool -Description -b file.png
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