ECS vectors v1.1.2 (by George) 19/06/2011

[OzTrans]

I'm just going to say the following here, it may not be the right place ... and you are not going to like it anyway ...

ECS, it's definition and implementation is utter rubbish and should be scrapped immediately; industries, cargoes and the various vehicle sets will never ever work together properly, unless each vehicle set tailors it's cargo transportation system to specific industry/cargo sets.

A few days ago, a minor problem was pointed out to me. The CanSet didn't want to transport glass (GLAS with cargo class 0x0020 'piece goods'). Initially I believed it was my fault, but after having things checked out and found that everything was defined as in the wiki, I had a look what the ECS Basic vector actually says about glass; well, it has been defined with cargo class 0x0004 'express'. Well glass is fragile and probably should just be transported express and definetely not what the wiki says..

Further to this, I am really puzzled why crude oil, water, petrol, milk and honey are not distinguished; no wonder why there is so much food poisoning happening.

Another example, bulk products, like iron ore and coal, traditionally transported in open hoppers, really clash with cargoes like cement, cereal, potash, oil seeds, sulphur to name a few. All of them are defined simply as bulk, and would go into open hoppers together with the ore. I'm just wondering what residents along rail lines would say, after a train load of cement has been transported past their homes in open hoppers; and the rail company (after a sudden downpour) about the state of their rolling stock, when trying to unload, what was left in the hoppers, they found a slimy sticky mess of concrete just about to dry up.

What about oil seeds (cargo class bulk) and fibre crops (cargo class bulk piece cargo) !. Why a difference here ?

I could go on and on ... we leave that for another day, but that implementation of cargo classes must be re-engineered. It's basically impossible to make sure a vehicle set will work with any industry/cargo set. Many ECS sets have cargo classes that do not match the wiki, thus it is impossible to get the in- and ex-clusions right. There would be constant modifications necessary, whenever a new cargo has been invented or a cargo set changed. I'm not going to tell what you should do, because you are not going to listen anyway ... but there is a sure system that would work without having to make changes to TTDPatch or OpenTTD; i.e. any vehicle set can work with any industry/cargo set without any set having to be aware of the other.

Now, you can start again, but do get it right this time ...

[DaleStan]

Many ECS sets have cargo classes that do not match the wiki, thus it is impossible to get the in- and ex-clusions right.

And George is clearly of the opinion that it's not his job to fix the wiki. I guess that means it's yours.

OY! George! Fix!

[George]

Many ECS sets have cargo classes that do not match the wiki, thus it is impossible to get the in- and ex-clusions right.

And George is clearly of the opinion that it's not his job to fix the wiki. I guess that means it's yours.
OY! George! Fix!

OzTransLtd is right for alpha vectors - some cargo classes were set wrong (not as in wiki). I had a task to fix them in todo list for a long time, Ok, I'll fix them ASAP.
The second point is what classes should cargoes on wiki have. If OzTransLtd would like to suggest some other values - fine he can simply change the wiki. If no one would disagree, I'll change that in the vectors, it is not hard at all. If some change would cause a question - a discussion can be done here. At list I do not see a big problem yet. I do not see what to redo. At least now I see only a place for bug fixes.

[George]

I did not expected the post like "Hey you, idiots, you did it bad because it does not work with my super puper set" form the person like you. Sad.

Instead, you could simply point out what cargo is defined wrong on the wiki and what in the GRF file. A question for a simple bug fix.

I could go on and on ... we leave that for another day, but that implementation of cargo classes must be re-engineered.

Suggest a list of cargo classes and a list of classes for ECS cargoes.

Many ECS sets have cargo classes that do not match the wiki

Why not to make a bug report, like Wile did?
Machinery vector:
STEL coded Action 0 prop. 16 10 instead of 20
fixed

Basic tropic vector:
WATR 16 10 instead of 40; CERA 16 04 instead of 20
fixed

Agricultural vector:
WOOL 16 04 instead of 20; FERT 16 10 instead of 30; FICR 16 20 instead of 30
FERT 70, fixed

Construction vector:
CMNT 16 90 instead of 10
CMNT 50

Town vector:
TOUR 16 01 instead of 05
fixed

Wood vector:
WDPR 16 20 instead of 30
fixed

Basic vector:
GLAS 16 04 instead of 20
fixed

Basic vector for arctic:
GLAS 16 04 instead of 20
fixed

Files uploaded

There would be constant modifications necessary, whenever a new cargo has been invented or a cargo set changed.

Why?

I'm not going to tell what you should do, because you are not going to listen anyway ...

What made you to think so?

but there is a sure system that would work without having to make changes to TTDPatch or OpenTTD; i.e. any vehicle set can work with any industry/cargo set without any set having to be aware of the other.

What is it? I can't understand after reading your post, what do you suggest except bug fixing?

Now, you can start again, but do get it right this time ...

[sarcasm]Thank you for permitting us to do it, oh mighty OzTransLtd! But how can we do it right without you wise guiding?[/sarcasm]

[Zimmlock]

Mmm Its hard for me to follow this discussion, but maybe, i say maybe its time for a total different approch. At first, if this cant be solved i would say keep TTRS the way it is. But i am not unwilling to accept new ideas, we have to evolve.
I allways have some kind of problem with the enormouse variety of GRF's and would like to see many merge. For example TTRS and all light industry ECS GRF's. But then evolvement of towns have to be rewritten. When a town grows its industrys have to migrate to the out skirts excluding the industrys that are economicaly profitable, when not that particular industry closes down and migrates to the industrial zone. When a town is full grown i see different zone's, in the center you have the City (zone 4) with the zone 4 buildings, Banks, Hotels and Statues, in the next zone (zone 3) you find the zone 3 buildings, some Hotels, Petrolstations, a few small Statues, maybe one or two "old" surviving industrys that are serviced well (if the supply of material for some reason stops the industry closes and migrates). Zone 2, the zone 2 and zone 1 buildings, some Petrolstations the Shoppingmalls. And zone 1 the industrial zone here are all medium light industrys consentrated like factory, glassfactory, Timberyards.
All other "heavy" industry like coalmines, powerplants, steelmills, carfactorys and so on exsist/can be build in zone 0.

To have some kind of a system here discribed all TTRS an ECS grf's (Vectors) have to be merged i guess. I am not a coder even wors i do not understand this and do not know what can and or cant be done. But i know in OpenTTD more is possible and maybe Csaboka is right when he felt blocked in his development in the traditional TTDPsystem, we slowly grow to the end of the Patch.

After rereading what i wrote i dont know if i am still ontopic, we need a grand discussion where we want to go. There are many individuals and small groupes that make thinks for THE game. But more cooperation is needed, infact we need more a vision where to go, so we can weave a net and create a "new" game.

Best regards
Zimmlock

[DaleStan]

I could go on and on ... we leave that for another day, but that implementation of cargo classes must be re-engineered.

Suggest a list of cargo classes and a list of classes for ECS cargoes.

Here's a thought: Try not setting more than one of "piece", "bulk", and "liquid" for any given cargo.

Liquid cargos are, well, liquid. The other two are solids. Bulk can be stored in hoppers. Piece cannot.

I am really puzzled why crude oil, water, petrol, milk and honey are not distinguished; no wonder why there is so much food poisoning happening.

Another example, bulk products, like iron ore and coal, traditionally transported in open hoppers, really clash with cargoes like cement, cereal, potash, oil seeds, sulphur to name a few. All of them are defined simply as bulk, and would go into open hoppers together with the ore.

And as for you, we have six more cargo classes waiting to be defined. Get on it.

[OzTrans]

... If OzTransLtd would like to suggest some other values - fine he can simply change the wiki ...

If I were to do that, then every other cargo/industry set and/or vehicle set developer would be up in arms. Once the cargo classes have been defined, they are set in concrete; and once a cargo by its label has been defined with a particular cargo class then that too is set in concrete. Further adding a new cargo must match the cargo class of a similar already defined cargo, if such cargo already exists. The cargo class is the interface between industry/cargo sets and vehicle sets, change the class for a cargo and you'll upset the apple cart. That is precisely what seems to have happened; unfortunately I did not take a snapshot of the Cargo Table from the wiki when I did my cargo allocation scheme. Now I cannot prove it did actually happen.

... you could have simply pointed out what cargo has been defined wrongly in the wiki and which one in the GRF file. A request for a simple bug fix. ...

Of course, I could have done that, but that would not solve the problem. The foundation of your ECS sets are based on the ECS implementation, which is totally flawed. Whatever you do, the ECS sets will come crashing down sooner or later, unless vehicle set creators tailor their sets to your ECS sets and keep their sets updated.

... Suggest a list of cargo classes and a list of classes for ECS cargoes. ...

A discussion of a new Cargo Transportation Scheme [CTS] will continue here.

Note : ECS implementation and definition has little to do with ECS sets by George, there is nothing wrong (apart from a few bugs) with them. It's the implementation of the Extended Cargo Scheme [ECS] that is flawed, unless it is scrapped and re-engineered there will always be problems, and vehicle sets will never agree with cargo sets.

[George]

Factory moved from ECS Machinery vector to ECS Town vector.
Please test

2Wally
what about updating this page
http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php ... neralRules
You wrote (28 Nov 2007) that you'll do it soon, but did not do it yet. Could you please do it ASAP?

Ok ... I have to think about how I am going to do this. I should have something to show you sometime tomorrow.

[wallyweb]

Factory moved from ECS Machinery vector to ECS Town vector.
Please test

It loads properly in TTDPatch with the latest nightly, however:

What's This?

SCR4.png (10.69 KiB) Viewed 4488 times

I also noticed that the Machinery vector must be loaded for the factory to accept glass (Basic) and dyes (Chemical). The only raw material it will accept alone is steel. If steel is not available, then the factory has no requirements at all.

I also noticed that the shipyard now accepts only wood. Can it be made to also accept steel?

2Wally
what about updating this page
http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php ... neralRules
You wrote (28 Nov 2007) that you'll do it soon, but did not do it yet. Could you please do it ASAP?

Ok ... I have to think about how I am going to do this. I should have something to show you sometime tomorrow.

Quit bugging me about it. I finished it several seconds ago.
Just one question: I'm not sure what you mean by "Offset Size Meaning". It looks like it's supposed to be a set of headers for a table.

[George]

It loads properly

t is not. The string for both Tourist centre and factory is corrupted (test one instead of required one). Will fix this evening

I also noticed that the Machinery vector must be loaded for the factory to accept glass (Basic) and dyes (Chemical). The only raw material it will accept alone is steel. If steel is not available, then the factory has no requirements at all.

Do you mean in new industry window or on the map? It is a known bug for new industry window, but in game it should work fine.

I also noticed that the shipyard now accepts only wood. Can it be made to also accept steel?

It should be wdpr and it works this way since beta 2. I always forget to fix it

Quit bugging me about it. I finished it several seconds ago.

I supposed more ...

Just one question: I'm not sure what you mean by "Offset Size Meaning". It looks like it's supposed to be a set of headers for a table.

I just put a part of the documentation before this section is written. That section should give the user the information, that even in TTD there were production levels, but they were hidden. Now they are reported by the industry.

[wallyweb]

Will fix this evening

Is it evening yet?

I also noticed that the Machinery vector must be loaded for the factory to accept glass (Basic) and dyes (Chemical). The only raw material it will accept alone is steel. If steel is not available, then the factory has no requirements at all.

Do you mean in new industry window or on the map? It is a known bug for new industry window, but in game it should work fine.

Check the images in the attached zip file for evidence of my charges. The defense rests its case.

I also noticed that the shipyard now accepts only wood. Can it be made to also accept steel?

It should be wdpr and it works this way since beta 2. I always forget to fix it

I can help. Follow these instructions:
1. Copy and paste the following code into your word processor.
2. Set the font size to 1000
3. Set the text colour to very bright orange
4. Print the document
5. Tape the document to your refrigerator.

Code: Select all

Закрепить #&^?@# верфи

Just one question: I'm not sure what you mean by "Offset Size Meaning". It looks like it's supposed to be a set of headers for a table.

I just put a part of the documentation before this section is written. That section should give the user the information, that even in TTD there were production levels, but they were hidden. Now they are reported by the industry.

Then are those values the original hidden ones from TTD?

[George]

Will fix this evening

Is it evening yet?

Evening - is the time when I get home. You have to wait at least 1 hour

Just one question: I'm not sure what you mean by "Offset Size Meaning". It looks like it's supposed to be a set of headers for a table.

I just put a part of the documentation before this section is written. That section should give the user the information, that even in TTD there were production levels, but they were hidden. Now they are reported by the industry.

Then are those values the original hidden ones from TTD?

Yes. But the code that modifies them was rewritten. Now it is more complex So the behaviour is different. The most important change is jumping through several levels (In TTD levels could change to the nearest value *2 or /2). This is the thing that user does not expect (I mean both every month change and jumping through levels).

Check the images in the attached zip file for evidence of my charges. The defense rests its case.

2Csaboka:
Is it possible to fix this?

[belugas]

I just grabbed the latest Town Vector from 6th od december, loaded in OpenTTD with nothing else and here is the result.
If we are talking about the same thing, could it be a bug in the grf itself?
I cannot debug from here, nor for a few days, but I could eventually give some hints.
It's that of both Csaboka and I did the same bug in our respective codes ^_^

[wallyweb]

If we are talking about the same thing, could it be a bug in the grf itself?

The bug I was referring to was that of the Factory requiring no input product.
If you have loaded only the Town vector (My Scr1), as hinted at by your png, then that is the expected behaviour because there are no industries available to feed the Factory.
The problem arises when the Basic (glass) and/or Chemical (dyes) vectors are loaded, but not the Machinery (steel) vector (Scr2, 3 and 4). The Factory still has no input even though glass and/or dyes are available.
The Machinery vector has to be loaded (Scr5, 6, 7 and 8 ) for the Factory to get any input at all from the Basic and/or Chemical vectors.

[belugas]

Ok. Sorry for the confusion.
Just tested again with fresh copies of the grfs.
And here is the result:

[wallyweb]

Thanks belugas. The information appears as intended in OTTD.
It does not in TTDPatch.

I just ran a live in game test and although glass and dyes do not appear in the factory's window, the factory does accept them and process them into goods.

[George]

I just ran a live in game test and although glass and dyes do not appear in the factory's window, the factory does accept them and process them into goods.

Csaboka

[Guisseppe]

Because the suggestion from Wallyweb in this thread I post my question again over here:

I have to say:
Yesterday I installed the 6 dec. version of ECS, but I really dislike the sprite of the new Steelmill. Why is the old one replaced?

So: Can I still use the old steel mill, but with the functions of the newest ECS version?

I hope it's the right place this time

[George]

Because the suggestion from Wallyweb in this thread I post my question again over here:
I have to say:
Yesterday I installed the 6 dec. version of ECS, but I really dislike the sprite of the new Steelmill. Why is the old one replaced?

Because it was the AIM of the ECS vectors to replace all the industry stuff someday. If you do not like new graphics you can:
1) Draw better graphics and I'll put it in
2) Code the version without new graphics for your personal purpose from ECS Machinery vector (it would be relative easy)
3) Ask Oz to improve his graphics (I only coded it)
4) Not to use ECS Machinery vector

So: Can I still use the old steel mill, but with the functions of the newest ECS version?

Yes, solution 2 is for you.
All you need is
1) modify tiles code

Code: Select all

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2) remove graphics code

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// - next animation frame -
// - break line -
10307 * 5	 0A 01 01 02 00
10308 sprites/ECSMachw14.PCX 2 264 03 1 584 0 0
10309 * 4	 01 09 1B 01
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10317 sprites/ECSMachw15.PCX 2 168 09 144 78 -31 -113
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//@@BEAUTIFY=Off
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//@@BEAUTIFY=Off 
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10396 * 25	 02 09 49 02 00 80 00 80 06 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 0C 80 00 80 12 00 80
10397 * 25	 02 09 4A 02 00 80 00 80 06 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 0D 80 00 80 12 00 80
10398 * 25	 02 09 4B 02 00 80 00 80 06 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 0E 80 00 80 12 00 80
10399 * 25	 02 09 4C 02 00 80 00 80 06 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 0F 80 00 80 12 00 80
10400 * 25	 02 09 4D 02 00 80 00 80 06 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 10 80 00 80 12 00 80
10401 * 25	 02 09 4E 02 00 80 00 80 06 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 11 80 00 80 12 00 80
10402 * 25	 02 09 4F 02 00 80 00 80 06 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 12 80 00 80 12 00 80
10403 * 17	 02 09 61 00 00 80 00 80 07 80 00 80 00 00 10 10 7F
10404 * 32	 02 09 68 03 00 80 00 80 07 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 17 80 00 80 20 13 80 0B 80 00 80 26 00 80
10405 * 32	 02 09 69 03 00 80 00 80 07 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 18 80 00 80 20 13 80 0C 80 00 80 26 00 80
10406 * 32	 02 09 6A 03 00 80 00 80 07 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 19 80 00 80 20 13 80 0D 80 00 80 26 00 80
10407 * 32	 02 09 6B 03 00 80 00 80 07 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 1A 80 00 80 20 13 80 0E 80 00 80 26 00 80
10408 * 32	 02 09 6C 03 00 80 00 80 07 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 13 80 00 80 20 13 80 0F 80 00 80 26 00 80
10409 * 32	 02 09 6D 03 00 80 00 80 07 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 14 80 00 80 20 13 80 10 80 00 80 26 00 80
10410 * 32	 02 09 6E 03 00 80 00 80 07 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 15 80 00 80 20 13 80 11 80 00 80 26 00 80
10411 * 32	 02 09 6F 03 00 80 00 80 07 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 16 80 00 80 20 13 80 12 80 00 80 26 00 80
10412 * 17	 02 09 60 00 00 80 00 80 08 80 00 80 00 00 10 10 7F
10413 * 25	 02 09 78 02 00 80 00 80 08 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 13 80 00 80 33 10 80
10414 * 25	 02 09 79 02 00 80 00 80 08 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 14 80 00 80 33 10 80
10415 * 25	 02 09 7A 02 00 80 00 80 08 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 15 80 00 80 33 10 80
10416 * 25	 02 09 7B 02 00 80 00 80 08 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 16 80 00 80 33 10 80
10417 * 25	 02 09 7C 02 00 80 00 80 08 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 17 80 00 80 33 10 80
10418 * 25	 02 09 7D 02 00 80 00 80 08 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 18 80 00 80 33 10 80
10419 * 25	 02 09 7E 02 00 80 00 80 08 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 19 80 00 80 33 10 80
10420 * 25	 02 09 7F 02 00 80 00 80 08 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 1A 80 00 80 33 10 80
10421 * 17	 02 09 90 00 00 80 00 80 09 80 00 80 00 00 10 10 7F
10422 * 25	 02 09 98 02 00 80 00 80 09 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 0B 80 00 80 0C 00 80
10423 * 25	 02 09 99 02 00 80 00 80 09 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 0C 80 00 80 0C 00 80
10424 * 25	 02 09 9A 02 00 80 00 80 09 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 0D 80 00 80 0C 00 80
10425 * 25	 02 09 9B 02 00 80 00 80 09 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 0E 80 00 80 0C 00 80
10426 * 25	 02 09 9C 02 00 80 00 80 09 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 0F 80 00 80 0C 00 80
10427 * 25	 02 09 9D 02 00 80 00 80 09 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 10 80 00 80 0C 00 80
10428 * 25	 02 09 9E 02 00 80 00 80 09 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 11 80 00 80 0C 00 80
10429 * 25	 02 09 9F 02 00 80 00 80 09 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 12 80 00 80 0C 00 80
10430 * 17	 02 09 91 00 00 80 00 80 0A 80 00 80 00 00 10 10 7F
10431 * 25	 02 09 A8 02 00 80 00 80 0A 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 13 80 00 80 1C 00 80
10432 * 25	 02 09 A9 02 00 80 00 80 0A 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 14 80 00 80 1C 00 80
10433 * 25	 02 09 AA 02 00 80 00 80 0A 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 15 80 00 80 1C 00 80
10434 * 25	 02 09 AB 02 00 80 00 80 0A 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 16 80 00 80 1C 00 80
10435 * 25	 02 09 AC 02 00 80 00 80 0A 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 17 80 00 80 1C 00 80
10436 * 25	 02 09 AD 02 00 80 00 80 0A 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 18 80 00 80 1C 00 80
10437 * 25	 02 09 AE 02 00 80 00 80 0A 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 19 80 00 80 1C 00 80
10438 * 25	 02 09 AF 02 00 80 00 80 0A 80 00 80 00 00 00 10 10 7F 1A 80 00 80 1C 00 80
//@@BEAUTIFY=On

3) fix graphics refs (i.e.)

Code: Select all

// tile 34
10439 * 46	 02 09 1F 81
                 44 20 07 00
                 1A 20 00 07
                 1A 00 08
                 07 18 00 00 00
                 19 00 01 01
                 1A 00 02 02
                 1B 00 03 03
                 1C 00 04 04
                 1D 00 05 05
                 1E 00 06 06
                 1F 00
10440 * 22	 02 09 01 81 40 00 0F 03
                 D0 00 00 00
                 D1 00 01 01
                 1F 00 03 03
                 01 00
10441 * 18	 02 09 00 81 40 00 0F 02
                 D0 00 00 00
                 D1 00 01 01
                 00 00
10442 * 18	 02 09 FF 85 62 F0 00 FF FF 01 00 00 34 00 34 00 01 00
// - callbacks -

I suppose you can make it in about half an hour
And no, I shall not do it for you. There is solution 1

[Guisseppe]

I suppose you can make it in about half an hour
And no, I shall not do it for you. There is solution 1

Hehe... Point taken.
/me has to start to do some work myself