NoAI Subforum

[TrueBrain]

We, current developers of the NoAI Framework and its users, would like a NoAI Subforums under OpenTTD.

Currently there is one main thread in which people post their questions and suggestions. This both makes it impossible for others to search, as impossible to follow 'threads' inside that thread. Basically, the thread became its own subforum. Not only does this make it hard for the developers to see if a question is answered, and follow communication, for AI creators it is impossible to see what is asked. As result, we get the same question over and over, and we completely lost the overview over the topic. This can't be a good thing.

Suggestions like tagging your post with [NoAI] will result in failure, as people tend not to read. Also, they have 4 subforums to pick to post their question/suggestion in, and as the developers of NoAI don't have the time to follow all subforums of OpenTTD, this is a painful job, and often results in AI developers leaving, because they couldn't figure out something simple.

At first we wanted to start our own forum at noai.openttd.org, but this was considered a bad idea. More logic would be to add a NoAI Subforums to the OpenTTD Section, as this forum is, after all, for the users, by the users. A sub-sub forums of Develop Forums of OpenTTD is also fine by us. Either way, it would help out a lot in the communication from and to developers and users.

[Dave]

Forgive me for questioning this idea, but if you were to have a sub-forum for the project, it'd surely be a case of everyone wanting one for their project.

For example, why shouldn't Michael Blunck have a sub-forum for his graphics, etc.

[TrueBrain]

As this "project" is of a totally different size, even more with the TJIP challenge starting up. I wouldn't have requested this for, say, TGP, or new Networking, or what ever, but this is growing to a size it can't be handled in a single topic anymore. Many people have small questions, which needs answering. To give an idea of the size of this project, there are currently 397 (!) functions available to the user, and this amount is increasing.

If you have any other ideas to allow clear communication back and forward between us, the NoAI Framework developers, and AI developers, it would be very much welcome. But for now the only simple solution I see is a sub-forum (or sub-sub-forum of the Development part) (both simple in time and user-comfort).

(Ps: the reason for this post is so you can question the idea )

[GeekToo]

I second Truelight's request. I'm developing a NoAI AI, and thus a frequent reader of this thread. The NoAi branch is creating a pretty active sub-community, and keeping up with the posts in this thread and separating the interesting ones from the not so interesting ones is taking more and more time, not only for the devs, but also for the users. So creating a sub forum is a very good idea, I think.

Dave, of course everyone does want a sub-forum for his project. But I guess a project has to 'deserve' that, by creating a certain amount of activity in a thread. If you look at the NoAI thread, last friday, more than 25 posts were made, and then you've reached the point that it would make sense to create a subforum, to make things a bit more manageable for both users and devs. If Michael Blunck does create that amount of activity, I think he deserves his own subforum too.

[Hyronymus]

I don't think there would be a problem with giving NoAI a subforum of OTTD Development. But it's up to Owen to decide in the end. It's good to see that you post your question in publich by the way. As co-mod you could've posted this in the Private Area but you didn't .

Dave, don't compare apples with pears and don't fill in what might have been if only Michael ever asked. He never did (as far as I can tell) and creating a graphics set is quite different from working out an idea and writing code.

[athanasios]

NoAI is a pretty big project. I second the suggestion of a sub-sub forum (under development) and not a separate subforum, since it is development stuff.

[Dave]

Dave, don't compare apples with pears and don't fill in what might have been if only Michael ever asked. He never did (as far as I can tell) and creating a graphics set is quite different from working out an idea and writing code.

Hold on a minute - why the sudden "don't do this, don't do that"?

I asked a frigging question, Hyronymus - I didn't suggest TrueLight was wrong for doing so.

And the mod team wonder why I get so frustrated on the forums!?

For what must be about the fiftieth time on these forums, I have used a hypothetical example and been questioned about it - I'm not saying Michael WANTS one, I'm not saying Michael NEEDS one - I'm saying that if you look at the size of his thread he surely would deserve one if we started doing this.

As it is, TrueLight and GeekToo have answered me in the correct way - thanks for that gentlemen.

[Hyronymus]

No you hold on, Dave. It's completely ridiculous to go ballistic over this matter so calm down. Take a hike or something. Then, when you're cooled down, we will discuss this more. In a normal, non-hostile way.

[Dave]

No you hold on, Dave. It's completely ridiculous to go ballistic over this matter so calm down.

It wouldn't be a "matter" at all if you hadn't come back like that - what do you expect, me to sit there and be all "Yes Hyronymus, no Hyronymus, three bags full Hyronymus"?

[Rubidium]

Just to give a feeling of the magnitude of NoAI:
- the amount of code for supporting NewGRFs in OpenTTD and for NoAI is currently about equal (~15000 lines).
- I currently know of about 15 persons that are currently actively developing an AI. Don't know how many persons are actively developing NewGRFs at the moment but it would amaze me if it would be more than about 30-50 persons.

This makes it, in my personal opinion, fairly comparable to NewGRF. It is ofcourse true that there currently aren't that many posts about the matter, but the project is also young with respect to NewGRF.

Whether it belongs as a subforum of the Development forum or just a subforum of the OpenTTD forum remains a point of discussion. Personally I'd make it an OpenTTD subforum as it isn't going to be purely about the development of the framework, but also about implementations of AI and suggestions of things that might or might not be added to the framework. Likewise that the Graphics forum isn't a subforum of the Development forum because even though graphics are part of the development of OpenTTD they are such a big part of the development that they deserve a separate place (or actually two if you include the TTDPatch Graphics forum too).

For the name of the forum I'd suggest "OpenTTD AIs" with "Discuss, get help with, or post new AIs for OpenTTD's NoAI framework here" as description. This to make it more clear that NoAI doesn't mean that it's about removing AIs, but about a framework for AIs and implementations using that framework.

[Hyronymus]

No you hold on, Dave. It's completely ridiculous to go ballistic over this matter so calm down.

It wouldn't be a "matter" at all if you hadn't come back like that - what do you expect, me to sit there and be all "Yes Hyronymus, no Hyronymus, three bags full Hyronymus"?

Point to me where I hurt your precious soul.

[nautre125]

I agree that NoAI needs his own sub-forum. It's not about develloping OTTD but about develloping an AI using the framework provided by OTTD, wich would be pretty the same as develloping new graphics using the newGRF feature. As said before, it's pretty comparable

[Samwise]

No you hold on, Dave. It's completely ridiculous to go ballistic over this matter so calm down.

It wouldn't be a "matter" at all if you hadn't come back like that - what do you expect, me to sit there and be all "Yes Hyronymus, no Hyronymus, three bags full Hyronymus"?

Point to me where I hurt your precious soul.

Please, continue your flame war in PM, they're discussing other stuff in here

[DaleStan]

I'm with Dave on this one. And with Darkmast: If you want to discuss it, with me or anyone else, take it to PM.

As for the topic, I agree that the NoAI thread is a bit unwieldy. Shoveling the NoAI stuff elsewhere might well mean that I end up not reading it at all, but this is probably a good thing for all involved.

[orudge]

If the OpenTTD moderators think NoAI is worth having its own forum (or subforum - eg, of OpenTTD Development, as suggested), then I'll create one. After all, it's you lot who will have to moderate it, mainly. I'd probably create a subforum initially... if there's enough demand, it could be changed into a full forum at a later date.

[jonty-comp]

I agree, it's the OpenTTD section and thus the OpenTTD Developers/Moderators should have control over what's in it. I don't really consider a subforum any more than an extended sticky-type thing, and they've already made lots of those.
Then again, if it all goes pear-shaped then they can take the responsibility.

[orudge]

No comments from the OpenTTD moderators?

[TrueBrain]

No comments from the OpenTTD moderators?

Out of the 7 OpenTTD moderators, of which 2 are not around lately, and 1 never used his moderate abilities, 2 replied in this topic. How much more comments do you want?

[Ralph]

Just another request for a subforum, between squashing bugs, comparing AIs and debating pathfinding that thread is getting very messy.

-Ralph

[Zutty]

Another vote for the NoAI subforum. At the risk of hyperbole, we really need it!

There are frequently several conversations overlapping each-other in the NoAI thread and its difficult to keep up.